From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 2 15:34:14 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f62CYEW11905 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:34:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f62CTop22869 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:29:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA10116; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107020400.AAA18974@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 07/02/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/02/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Jun 28 08:21:30 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 42/ 40/ 19 Behemot Michal Janeczek 144 421 2 30/ 17/ 52 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 143 187 3 31/ 19/ 50 Inky Ian Oversby 142 77 4 27/ 16/ 57 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 139 598 5 40/ 42/ 18 G2-b David Moore 139 384 6 40/ 42/ 17 Jinx Christian Schmidt 138 561 7 30/ 23/ 48 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 137 360 8 30/ 24/ 46 Revival Fire P.Kline 137 66 9 29/ 22/ 49 Olivia Ben Ford 136 326 10 40/ 44/ 16 Phantasm 50 Robert Macrae 136 106 11 32/ 30/ 38 Blacken Ian Oversby 135 845 12 39/ 43/ 18 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 135 555 13 34/ 33/ 33 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 134 299 14 27/ 22/ 52 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 131 21 15 27/ 24/ 48 Uninvited John Metcalf 130 280 16 25/ 20/ 56 Vain Ian Oversby 129 63 17 19/ 8/ 73 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 129 298 18 25/ 23/ 53 Qtest Christian Schmidt 127 120 19 19/ 14/ 67 Chism John Metcalf 124 1 20 18/ 13/ 68 Chism John Metcalf 124 2 21 1/ 83/ 16 Darwin v1 Evolved by Jason Coo 20 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 2 15:34:19 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f62CYJW32285 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:34:19 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f62CTup22880 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:29:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA10150; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107020400.AAA18966@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 07/02/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/02/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Jun 21 07:17:30 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 QuiVa John Metcalf 28 174 2 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 20 20 3 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 15 37 4 test John Metcalf 13 9 5 fclear Brian Haskin 13 65 6 8thTest Gino Oblena 13 12 7 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 7 81 8 Her Majesty P.Kline 6 100 9 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 3 1 10 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 1 6 11 sptst (5D) Stefan Foerster 1 2 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 2 15:34:29 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f62CYTW05306 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:34:29 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f62CU6p22898 for ; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:30:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA10174; Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:32:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:32:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107020400.AAA18970@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 07/02/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/02/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Wed Jun 20 04:06:45 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 19/ 47 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 148 31 2 39/ 34/ 26 Black Moods Ian Oversby 145 95 3 40/ 41/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 139 59 4 36/ 35/ 29 Ogre Christian Schmidt 138 47 5 26/ 16/ 58 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 137 39 6 31/ 30/ 39 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 133 28 7 26/ 23/ 51 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 128 38 8 17/ 7/ 76 Denial David Moore 128 40 9 29/ 33/ 38 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 126 99 10 15/ 7/ 78 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 124 168 11 18/ 13/ 69 Kin John Metcalf 123 7 12 13/ 4/ 82 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 122 116 13 14/ 6/ 80 Black Box v1.1 JKW 122 62 14 27/ 33/ 39 test CS 122 56 15 19/ 19/ 63 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 119 121 16 31/ 45/ 24 Pagan John K W 116 153 17 28/ 43/ 29 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 113 5 18 14/ 20/ 66 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 109 120 19 17/ 26/ 57 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 108 26 20 14/ 21/ 64 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 107 1 21 0/ 0/ 5 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 5 2 From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Jul 6 08:36:38 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f665abW26655 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:36:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f665aa121444 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 08:36:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA16689; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 01:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <20010706002050.18491.00002163@ng-fa1.aol.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: wooday04@aol.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: wooday04@aol.com (Wooday04) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: help X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: hey is corewars still around? if so, could someone help me learn how to make a monster or warrior or whatever. take me under your wing, make me your apprentice. it would be greatly apprectiated From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Jul 6 09:36:27 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f666aRW03677 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:36:27 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f666aQ123759 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 09:36:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA17046; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 02:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B454AE4.3010707@SPAMTRAP.babel.com.au> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: gold@SPAMTRAP.babel.com.au Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Gold To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I've always wondered about corewars too. Would anyone like to start a multi part post over a few days/weeks telling about the game, any websites and a tutorial perhaps? Au. Wooday04 wrote: > hey is corewars still around? if so, could someone help me learn how to make a > monster or warrior or whatever. take me under your wing, make me your > apprentice. it would be greatly apprectiated From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Jul 6 19:15:50 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f66GFoW17270 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 19:15:50 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f66GFn118692 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 19:15:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA21760; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 12:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: fordbc@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Benjamin Ford" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Its still around. The best sites to look at would be http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~pizza/koth/ and http://www.koth.org/ You should be able to find tutorials and such there. From: Gold >I've always wondered about corewars too. > >Would anyone like to start a multi part post over a few days/weeks >telling about the game, any websites and a tutorial perhaps? > >Au. > >Wooday04 wrote: > >>hey is corewars still around? if so, could someone help me learn how to >>make a >>monster or warrior or whatever. take me under your wing, make me your >>apprentice. it would be greatly apprectiated > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Jul 7 05:09:50 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6729nW25888 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 05:09:49 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6729mb08448 for ; Sat, 7 Jul 2001 05:09:49 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA25975; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Gold > Sent: 6 juillet, 2001 02:35 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: help > > > I've always wondered about corewars too. > > Would anyone like to start a multi part post over a few days/weeks > telling about the game, any websites and a tutorial perhaps? > > Au. > > Wooday04 wrote: > > > hey is corewars still around? if so, could someone help me > learn how to make a > > monster or warrior or whatever. take me under your wing, make me your > > apprentice. it would be greatly apprectiated OK... First, corewarriors are programmed in an assembly like language. You'll find basic info in the pMars package, so i won't explain everyone of these opcodes 8) However, i'm going to explain addressing modes and instruction modifiers, sicne they seem to be a BIG obstacle for many. The basics of corewar: 1. Corewarriors are run in a flat memory ("core") that rolls around. IE, if you had a core of size 100 "memory cells"(a), pointing to address 100 or 0 would point tot he exact same place. Standard coresize is 8000. That core is numbered from 0 to (core size-1) 2. Addressing is relative to the instruction that is being executed. IE, there is no "real" address, except that for the sake of simplicity, the debugger assumes that the start of the first warrior is cell 0. For example: We ahve a program: [line 1:points to 1 and 2] [line 2:points to 1] [line 3:points to -2] *line=cell, sine you can only have one instruction/line, and one instruction = 1 cell(aaah, the simplicity 8) If line one points to "1", it will point to line 2. if it points to "2", it will point to line 3. However, if line two points to "1", it will point to line 3. And, if, for example, line 3 points to -2, it will point to line 1. BUT, there are no negatives in corewar. Negative numbers are converted to [coresize+negative number]. For example, if we had a coresize of 5 in the example above, line 3 would actually point to [5+-2=3], sicne everything rolls around. 3. Every programm can spawn multiple processes(threads). BUT, whenever you spawn a new thread, each thread runs at a smaller speed, since they all share the same computer time. Also, each corewarrior execute one fo their process one at a time from the process queue, in turn. So, let's say Warrior 1 had this queue: Part 1.3 part 1.1 part 1.2 And warrior 2 had: part 2.1 part 2.2 Then, they would execute in this order: part 1.3 part 2.1 Part 1.1 part 2.2 Part 1.2 Part 2.1 See? basic part of an instruction: Opcode(MOV, ADD, etc).[instruction modifier(changes how the opcode works] [addressing mode A(see below)] Address_A, [addressing mode B] Address_B Addressing mode+address is known as field. so, there are an A- and a B- field. OK. addressing modes: there three basic sorts of addressings: Direct Normal Indirect Direct:(identifier for direct addressing mode:#) Points to the instruction itself,no matter what comes after the #. For example, JMZ somewhere, #3 JMZ checks tos ee if the address pointed to by the B field is zero. BUT, if ahs to check that on either part A, B, or A and B of the isntruction the b-field points to. That's what the instruction modifier changes. JMZ assumes that it checks b-field, though, by default. SO, what address does it check? "0", sicne # make it so it ALWAYS point to itself. What part of the command does it check? b-field, since that's what it does by default. Is the b-field of jmz somewhere, #3 equal to 0? 3 isn't 0, so it doesn't jump to somewhere. ugh... it's getting long 8) How about we call it a day for now. Post ehre for what you don't understand(not if, i KNOW i'll have to reexaplin everything bc i suck at explaining stuff 8) HTH, Paul Khuong(NOT KLINE) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.264 / Virus Database: 136 - Release Date: 01-07-02 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 9 15:14:47 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f69CElW20928 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:14:47 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f69CEkb06760 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:14:46 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA20147; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:09:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:09:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107090400.AAA20733@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 07/09/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/09/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Jul 5 07:58:26 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 34/ 19/ 47 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 148 31 2 40/ 34/ 26 Black Moods Ian Oversby 145 95 3 41/ 41/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 141 59 4 37/ 34/ 29 Ogre Christian Schmidt 139 47 5 26/ 16/ 58 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 137 39 6 32/ 30/ 39 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 134 28 7 17/ 7/ 76 Denial David Moore 128 40 8 26/ 23/ 51 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 128 38 9 30/ 33/ 37 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 126 99 10 15/ 7/ 78 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 124 168 11 18/ 13/ 69 Kin John Metcalf 123 7 12 13/ 4/ 82 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 122 116 13 14/ 6/ 80 Black Box v1.1 JKW 122 62 14 27/ 33/ 40 test CS 121 56 15 19/ 19/ 63 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 119 121 16 31/ 45/ 24 Pagan John K W 118 153 17 28/ 43/ 29 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 114 5 18 14/ 20/ 66 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 109 120 19 17/ 26/ 57 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 108 26 20 14/ 21/ 64 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 107 1 21 10/ 25/ 64 botst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 96 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 9 15:15:58 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f69CFvW09029 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:15:57 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f69CFub20281 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:15:56 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA20175; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107090400.AAA20737@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 07/09/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/09/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sat Jul 7 03:06:00 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 41/ 40/ 19 Behemot Michal Janeczek 142 421 2 29/ 18/ 53 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 141 187 3 40/ 43/ 18 G2-b David Moore 136 384 4 30/ 23/ 47 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 136 360 5 28/ 22/ 49 Inky Ian Oversby 135 77 6 26/ 18/ 56 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 135 598 7 34/ 34/ 33 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 134 299 8 39/ 45/ 17 Phantasm 50 Robert Macrae 133 106 9 28/ 23/ 49 Olivia Ben Ford 132 326 10 38/ 44/ 18 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 132 555 11 38/ 45/ 17 Jinx Christian Schmidt 132 561 12 31/ 31/ 38 Blacken Ian Oversby 131 845 13 19/ 8/ 72 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 131 298 14 27/ 25/ 48 Uninvited John Metcalf 129 280 15 27/ 26/ 46 Revival Fire P.Kline 128 66 16 25/ 24/ 51 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 127 21 17 24/ 20/ 56 Vain Ian Oversby 127 63 18 23/ 25/ 52 Qtest Christian Schmidt 121 120 19 18/ 16/ 66 Chism John Metcalf 120 1 20 18/ 15/ 67 Chism John Metcalf 120 2 21 29/ 64/ 8 Spxopt test 10 Steve Gunnell 94 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 9 15:17:22 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f69CHLW26878 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:17:21 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f69CHK128055 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 15:17:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA20211; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:13:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:13:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107090400.AAA20725@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 07/09/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/09/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Thu Jun 28 07:59:21 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 36/ 20/ 45 Freight Train David Moore 152 77 2 35/ 20/ 45 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 149 34 3 34/ 20/ 46 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 149 16 4 33/ 21/ 47 Guardian Ian Oversby 145 76 5 39/ 38/ 23 Stasis David Moore 141 184 6 38/ 35/ 27 PacMan David Moore 140 106 7 42/ 43/ 15 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 140 73 8 41/ 44/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 137 114 9 26/ 16/ 58 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 137 90 10 33/ 30/ 37 Frog Sticker P.Kline 137 26 11 29/ 22/ 49 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 136 32 12 27/ 19/ 54 Jinglo John Metcalf 135 1 13 36/ 37/ 27 Tangle Trap David Moore 135 150 14 38/ 40/ 22 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 135 352 15 27/ 19/ 54 Test I Ian Oversby 134 133 16 39/ 45/ 16 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 133 402 17 27/ 20/ 53 Evoltmp 88 John K W 133 127 18 18/ 3/ 79 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 133 5 19 39/ 46/ 14 ig Wayne Sheppard 132 4 20 35/ 37/ 28 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 132 17 21 2/ 98/ 0 Unknown Anonymous 7 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 9 17:34:54 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f69EYsW02615 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 17:34:54 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f69EYqb08971 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 17:34:53 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA21168; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 10:32:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 10:32:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B49AEFA.76AC569B@sendmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: richard@sendmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Richard Rognlie To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: C++Robots Standings -- 2001.07.09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Program Name Score W / L / T Age Author ================ ===== =========== === ===================================== 1 tommy 685 228/ 21/ 1 32 jacksoew 2 crbot 633 211/ 39/ 0 9 Rosevear.Craig.CA 3 minim 630 210/ 40/ 0 56 steveg 4 radar 601 200/ 49/ 1 159 Radu.Dumitru 5 simpletest 573 191/ 59/ 0 161 niklas.wendel 6 hal9000_v2 547 182/ 67/ 1 95 camangi 7 jedi 534 178/ 72/ 0 4 camangi 8 polarbear 531 177/ 73/ 0 58 flandar 9 mi5 525 175/ 75/ 0 2 schreiner.michael 10 quaver 518 171/ 74/ 5 34 steveg 11 flash2 495 165/ 85/ 0 100 camangi 12 crunchie1_xx 495 164/ 83/ 3 15 Roberto.Nerici 13 wobble 483 161/ 89/ 0 141 itcstr 14 beta-chicken 475 158/ 91/ 1 10 Sverre.Normann 15 raystonn 471 157/ 93/ 0 39 raystonn 16 mortein 463 154/ 95/ 1 8 mortein 17 alpha-chicken 456 152/ 98/ 0 12 Sverre.Normann 18 sandman 420 140/110/ 0 49 zechis 19 crunchie0_xx 414 138/112/ 0 24 roberton 20 seeker 409 136/113/ 1 119 lefevre 21 x3-unit 408 136/114/ 0 109 xychix 22 mathilda 402 134/116/ 0 33 shredder 23 track++ 399 133/117/ 0 7 GeniuSparr 24 imp 393 131/119/ 0 143 petrey 25 x2-unit 390 130/120/ 0 110 xychix 26 family-guy3 363 121/129/ 0 28 wmcdavitt 27 andymagel3 358 119/130/ 1 37 vcdude 28 andymage2 357 119/131/ 0 41 vcdude 29 locobot1 344 114/134/ 2 26 rlokers 30 coder 341 113/135/ 2 122 kreunen 31 brook1 339 113/137/ 0 153 brookdixon 32 kurzweil 331 110/139/ 1 128 kurzweil 33 shunt 330 110/140/ 0 48 derijck 34 guinea3 318 106/144/ 0 42 jcromwell 35 tracker 318 105/142/ 3 156 rrognlie 36 messenger 315 104/143/ 3 60 crobots 37 brook3 312 104/146/ 0 151 brookdixon 38 vegeta 292 97/152/ 1 115 zeikerd 39 scrapheap 286 95/154/ 1 36 j.v.d.wal 40 nappa 280 93/156/ 1 131 gerco 41 ths7f 273 91/159/ 0 158 TORSTEN.SCHOENFELDER 42 smarts 265 87/159/ 4 6 Peter.Mills 43 killer 244 81/168/ 1 148 anarchistfreak 44 hunter 225 75/175/ 0 105 shredder 45 hunter-v2 173 55/187/ 8 106 shredder 46 crotchet 171 55/189/ 6 57 steveg 47 zero 165 55/195/ 0 149 anarchistfreak 48 jbotv0.35b 160 52/194/ 4 90 croteau 49 jbotv0.5 155 51/197/ 2 89 croteau 50 testing1 18 6/244/ 0 1 Scott.Thisse For more information on C++Robots, visit http://www.gamerz.net/c++robots or send a message to c++robots@gamerz.net with a message SUBJECT of "help" -- / __ | Richard Rognlie / Sr. Technical Consultant / Sendmail, Inc. / / \ | http://www.gamerz.net/rrognlie/ \__/ / | / | Anything worth doing is worth paying somebody else to do well From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Jul 11 10:43:19 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6B7hIj08573 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:43:18 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6B7hH119764 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 10:43:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA09429; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 03:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 03:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B4BEED3.5000905@SPAMTRAP.babel.com.au> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: gold@SPAMTRAP.babel.com.au Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Gold To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Thanks for that Paul. I think this is kinda making sense Really appreciate the effort and look forward to the next installment. :) I'm gonna go hit the sites Benjamin posted also. See if that can build on what you've started too. Cheers, Gold Paul Khuong wrote: > OK... First, corewarriors are programmed in an assembly like language. > You'll find basic info in the pMars package, so i won't explain everyone of > these opcodes 8) > > However, i'm going to explain addressing modes and instruction modifiers, > sicne they seem to be a BIG obstacle for many. > > The basics of corewar: > 1. Corewarriors are run in a flat memory ("core") that rolls around. IE, if > you had a core of size 100 "memory cells"(a), pointing to address 100 or 0 > would point tot he exact same place. Standard coresize is 8000. That core is > numbered from 0 to (core size-1) > 2. Addressing is relative to the instruction that is being executed. IE, > there is no "real" address, except that for the sake of simplicity, the > debugger assumes that the start of the first warrior is cell 0. > For example: > We ahve a program: > [line 1:points to 1 and 2] > [line 2:points to 1] > [line 3:points to -2] > *line=cell, sine you can only have one instruction/line, and one instruction > = 1 cell(aaah, the simplicity 8) > If line one points to "1", it will point to line 2. if it points to "2", it > will point to line 3. However, if line two points to "1", it will point to > line 3. And, if, for example, line 3 points to -2, it will point to line 1. > BUT, there are no negatives in corewar. Negative numbers are converted to > [coresize+negative number]. For example, if we had a coresize of 5 in the > example above, line 3 would actually point to [5+-2=3], sicne everything > rolls around. > 3. Every programm can spawn multiple processes(threads). BUT, whenever you > spawn a new thread, each thread runs at a smaller speed, since they all > share the same computer time. Also, each corewarrior execute one fo their > process one at a time from the process queue, in turn. > So, let's say Warrior 1 had this queue: > Part 1.3 > part 1.1 > part 1.2 > And warrior 2 had: > part 2.1 > part 2.2 > > Then, they would execute in this order: > part 1.3 > part 2.1 > Part 1.1 > part 2.2 > Part 1.2 > Part 2.1 > > See? > > basic part of an instruction: > Opcode(MOV, ADD, etc).[instruction modifier(changes how the opcode works] > [addressing mode A(see below)] Address_A, [addressing mode B] Address_B > > Addressing mode+address is known as field. so, there are an A- and a B- > field. > > OK. addressing modes: > there three basic sorts of addressings: > Direct > Normal > Indirect > > Direct:(identifier for direct addressing mode:#) Points to the instruction > itself,no matter what comes after the #. > For example, JMZ somewhere, #3 > JMZ checks tos ee if the address pointed to by the B field is zero. BUT, if > ahs to check that on either part A, B, or A and B of the isntruction the > b-field points to. That's what the instruction modifier changes. JMZ assumes > that it checks b-field, though, by default. > SO, what address does it check? "0", sicne # make it so it ALWAYS point to > itself. What part of the command does it check? b-field, since that's what > it does by default. Is the b-field of jmz somewhere, #3 equal to 0? 3 isn't > 0, so it doesn't jump to somewhere. > > ugh... > > it's getting long 8) How about we call it a day for now. Post ehre for what > you don't understand(not if, i KNOW i'll have to reexaplin everything bc i > suck at explaining stuff 8) > > HTH, > Paul Khuong(NOT KLINE) > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.264 / Virus Database: 136 - Release Date: 01-07-02 > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Jul 12 00:32:15 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6BLWFj05754 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:32:15 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6BLWC123965 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:32:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA14866; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: peerschaefer@gmx.net Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: peerschaefer@gmx.net (Peer Schaefer) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hello to the Core War community out there! I am looking for a MARS (pMARS?) for PocketPC/WinCE. Is there any port? If not: is anybody out there working on such a port? Thanks Peer Schaefer From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Jul 12 13:34:45 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6CAYjj31905 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:34:45 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6CAYg117887 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:34:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA28311; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 06:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 06:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9ijr6r$o8g$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pak21@cam.ac.uk Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , Peer Schaefer wrote: >Hello to the Core War community out there! > >I am looking for a MARS (pMARS?) for PocketPC/WinCE. Is there any >port? pMARS is written in nice portable C, so I'd expect that the non-display versions would basically compile out of the box. Fancy displays may be a bit trickier, though :-) Phil -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Jul 12 14:35:13 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6CBZDj02645 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:35:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6CBZBb30665 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:35:12 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA28671; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 07:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9ijssq$que$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pak21@cam.ac.uk Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Yet another pMARS autoconf patch X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I've just uploaded yet another one of my pMARS patches to SourceForge: nothing particularly interesting in this one; it just makes my autoconf/automake patch (#432795) use the autoconf mechanism for generating a header file containing the various #defines, as opposed to putting them on the command line. Enjoy... Phil -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Jul 12 17:00:05 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6CE05j29173 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:00:05 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6CE02128853 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 17:00:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA29515; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Gold > Sent: 11 juillet, 2001 03:34 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: help > > > Thanks for that Paul. > > I think this is kinda making sense > > Really appreciate the effort and look forward to the next installment. :) > > I'm gonna go hit the sites Benjamin posted also. See if that can build > on what you've started too. > > Cheers, > Gold for soem reason, i can't seem to find the time to dot hat again(probably because i'm working all day long)...so, i think you might have to wait until i type the other installment at work ^_^ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.264 / Virus Database: 136 - Release Date: 01-07-02 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Jul 12 19:35:45 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6CGZij29273 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:35:44 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6CGZhb25217 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 19:35:44 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA00762; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: peerschaefer@gmx.net Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: peerschaefer@gmx.net (Peer Schaefer) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) wrote in message news:<9ijr6r$o8g$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk>... > In article , > Peer Schaefer wrote: > >Hello to the Core War community out there! > > > >I am looking for a MARS (pMARS?) for PocketPC/WinCE. Is there any > >port? > > pMARS is written in nice portable C, so I'd expect that the non-display > versions would basically compile out of the box. > > Fancy displays may be a bit trickier, though :-) > > Phil Sounds good! I am encouraged to do it by myself! But WHERE is the "non-display version" of pMARS? The version on the pMARS page at koth.org is obviously far from ANSI (far-pointers and other dirty tricks, not to speak of the gfx interface). No chance that this code will compile on my machine (wasted 2 hours trying; last result: 155 errors, over 400 warnings). I would appreciate every suggestion! Thanks Peer Schaefer From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Jul 12 20:35:58 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6CHZwj00854 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:35:58 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6CHZu106541 for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 20:35:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA01178; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:34:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 13:34:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9ikkqi$kbu$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pak21@cam.ac.uk Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , Peer Schaefer wrote: [pMARS on WinCE] >Sounds good! I am encouraged to do it by myself! > >But WHERE is the "non-display version" of pMARS? You may well have it already :-) >The version on the pMARS page at koth.org I'd recommend getting v0.9.2 (from SourceForge: https://sourceforge.net/projects/corewar/ ). The differences from 0.8.x aren't too important here, though. >is obviously far from ANSI (far-pointers and other dirty tricks, In my stock 0.9.2 source tree, the only time `far' is mentioned is between `#ifdef DOS16'/`#endif' conditionals. >not to speak of the gfx interface). Don't compile it then! Just don't #define either of `GRAPHX' or `XWINGRAPHX'. HTH, Phil -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 16 01:37:22 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6FMbLj08021 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 01:37:21 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6FMbKb07642 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 01:37:20 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA03815; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 18:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: peerschaefer@gmx.net Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: peerschaefer@gmx.net (Peer Schaefer) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) wrote in message news:<9ikkqi$kbu$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk>... > > I'd recommend getting v0.9.2 (from SourceForge: > https://sourceforge.net/projects/corewar/ ). The differences from 0.8.x > aren't too important here, though. > > >is obviously far from ANSI (far-pointers and other dirty tricks, > > In my stock 0.9.2 source tree, the only time `far' is mentioned is > between `#ifdef DOS16'/`#endif' conditionals. > > >not to speak of the gfx interface). > > Don't compile it then! Just don't #define either of `GRAPHX' or > `XWINGRAPHX'. > Hi folks! Thanks for your hints, but I fear it didn't helped. Here is what I did: - Got ver 0.9.2. from sourceforge. - Inserted this line at the head of "pmars.c": #undef _MSC_VER As far as I understand the sourcecode now, this should result in pretty platform-independend sourcecode and should prevent the compilation of the DOS16 and the GRAPHX passages. - Then I compiled the file "pmars.c" using MS C/C++. Here is what came out: Compiler errors: - 'exit' in line 275 of 'pmars.c' is not defined (OK, that could be solved pretty easy, but I think it's only a symptom of some major mistake I haven't discovered yet). - 'sort_by_score' in line 359 of 'pmars.c' is not defined Linker errors: - 21 external symbols are undefined (e.g. _results, _score, _deaths, _rounds, _warriors) (Obviously the code expects some #include-file that's missing, but which???? I tried including this or that file on a trial-and-error basis, but no combination worked. Phew.) I fear I made some VERY silly mistake that perhaps could be solved by two keystrokes, but I don't see what it may be. I tried till my fingers bleed and my eyes fell out :-( and I am very frustrated now and have no drive to continue wasting my spare time. I have pretty much experience programming in C/C++, but if nobody can help me I suspect that this project is beyond my abilites. Thanks again Peer Schaefer P.S.: I apologize for my horrible english (school's long ago) P.P.S.: Perhaps I am simply dumb and made some VERY silly mistake and are wasting your precious time. Maybe I have overlooked some 'pMARS-compiling-FAQs' that are available or something like that. In this case: I am sorry and please ignore this spam. From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 16 13:32:42 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GAWgj14347 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:32:42 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GAWd107208 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:32:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA09605; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 06:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 06:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <995273848.18467@itz.pp.sci.fi> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: iltzu@sci.invalid Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ilmari Karonen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , Peer Schaefer wrote: > >Here is what I did: >- Got ver 0.9.2. from sourceforge. >- Inserted this line at the head of "pmars.c": >#undef _MSC_VER [snip] >Here is what came out: >Compiler errors: >- 'exit' in line 275 of 'pmars.c' is not defined (OK, that could be [snip] >I fear I made some VERY silly mistake that perhaps could be solved by >two keystrokes, but I don't see what it may be. I tried till my >fingers bleed and my eyes fell out :-( and I am very frustrated now The "silly" mistake you've made is not using make. There should be a "make" utility (possibly named "*make.exe" or something like that) distributed along with your compiler, which can read the file named "Makefile" included in the source directory. That file tells the make program how to build pMARS. It also contains a number of options that you can set by editing the file. I think (can't check right now) this is all explained in the files named "README" and/or "INSTALL" that also come with the pMARS source. At least that is where the build instructions usually are. -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ "Good sigmonster. Oh wait, that's not a sigmonster, it's always that way." -- Logan Shaw in comp.lang.perl.misc From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 16 13:33:15 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GAXFj24254 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:33:15 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GAXD107244 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:33:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA09625; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 06:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 06:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9iuatk$i5v$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pak21@cam.ac.uk Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , Peer Schaefer wrote: [Compiling pMARS] >Thanks for your hints, but I fear it didn't helped. > >Here is what I did: >- Got ver 0.9.2. from sourceforge. >- Inserted this line at the head of "pmars.c": >#undef _MSC_VER >As far as I understand the sourcecode now, this should result in >pretty platform-independend sourcecode and should prevent the >compilation of the DOS16 and the GRAPHX passages. >- Then I compiled the file "pmars.c" using MS C/C++. > >Here is what came out: >Compiler errors: >- 'exit' in line 275 of 'pmars.c' is not defined (OK, that could be >solved pretty easy, but I think it's only a symptom of some major >mistake I haven't discovered yet). Should be in stdlib.h, assuming you have an ANSI compatible system. stdlib.h is included by global.h (assuming __STDC__ is defined). >- 'sort_by_score' in line 359 of 'pmars.c' is not defined Doubly defined in global.h for some reason; try removing the second definition (the one without any parameters) and see if that helps. >Linker errors: >- 21 external symbols are undefined (e.g. _results, _score, _deaths, >_rounds, _warriors) These are defined in the other source files; you need to compile and link all of `pmars.c', `asm.c', `eval.c', `disasm.c', `sim.c', `pos.c', `clparse.c', `global.c', `token.c' and `str_eng.c' to get a working pMARS executable. Phil -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 16 14:37:37 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GBbbj24806 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:37:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GBbY111035 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:37:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA10000; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 07:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 07:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9iugpe$2evi$1@news.lf.net> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: aiforge@flatmem.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Dennis Luehring" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: is(will) there a homepage of your pcoketpc/wince port? ... (please build one - for my link list) ciao dennis (from germany) ----------------------------------------------- AIForge - The Programming Game Link List http://tpga.virtualave.net "Ilmari Karonen" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:995273848.18467@itz.pp.sci.fi... > In article , Peer Schaefer wrote: > > > >Here is what I did: > >- Got ver 0.9.2. from sourceforge. > >- Inserted this line at the head of "pmars.c": > >#undef _MSC_VER > [snip] > >Here is what came out: > >Compiler errors: > >- 'exit' in line 275 of 'pmars.c' is not defined (OK, that could be > [snip] > >I fear I made some VERY silly mistake that perhaps could be solved by > >two keystrokes, but I don't see what it may be. I tried till my > >fingers bleed and my eyes fell out :-( and I am very frustrated now > > The "silly" mistake you've made is not using make. There should be a > "make" utility (possibly named "*make.exe" or something like that) > distributed along with your compiler, which can read the file named > "Makefile" included in the source directory. > > That file tells the make program how to build pMARS. It also contains a > number of options that you can set by editing the file. > > I think (can't check right now) this is all explained in the files named > "README" and/or "INSTALL" that also come with the pMARS source. At > least that is where the build instructions usually are. > > -- > Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ > "Good sigmonster. Oh wait, that's not a sigmonster, it's always that way." > -- Logan Shaw in comp.lang.perl.misc > From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 16 15:32:58 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GCWwj20316 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:32:58 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GCWvb30753 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:32:57 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA10369; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 08:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ransom@max.localdomain Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: ransom@max.localdomain (Ransom Smith) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On 15 Jul 2001 14:09:37 -0700, Peer Schaefer wrote: >I fear I made some VERY silly mistake that perhaps could be solved by >two keystrokes, but I don't see what it may be. I tried till my >fingers bleed and my eyes fell out :-( and I am very frustrated now >and have no drive to continue wasting my spare time. I have pretty >much experience programming in C/C++, but if nobody can help me I >suspect that this project is beyond my abilites. > >P.P.S.: Perhaps I am simply dumb and made some VERY silly mistake and >are wasting your precious time. Maybe I have overlooked some >'pMARS-compiling-FAQs' that are available or something like that. In >this case: I am sorry and please ignore this spam. Most likely not. I, for example, compile with no problems using gcc in linux, but spit out pages and pages of errors using gcc in dos. Never did get it to compile sucessfully on my other box. Eh. Good Luck. -- [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] I reserve the right to be normal, at any time and without notice. From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 16 16:15:07 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GDF7j06364 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:15:07 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GDF4116429 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:15:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA10668; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 09:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 09:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107160400.AAA22282@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 07/16/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/16/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sat Jul 14 22:59:37 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 31/ 19/ 49 Inky Ian Oversby 143 77 2 30/ 17/ 53 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 142 187 3 41/ 40/ 19 Behemot Michal Janeczek 141 421 4 27/ 16/ 57 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 139 598 5 29/ 23/ 48 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 136 360 6 29/ 22/ 50 Olivia Ben Ford 135 326 7 39/ 43/ 18 Jinx Christian Schmidt 135 561 8 29/ 24/ 47 Revival Fire P.Kline 134 66 9 32/ 30/ 38 Blacken Ian Oversby 133 845 10 38/ 44/ 18 G2-b David Moore 133 384 11 39/ 45/ 17 Phantasm 50 Robert Macrae 133 106 12 20/ 8/ 72 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 131 298 13 26/ 22/ 52 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 131 21 14 32/ 34/ 33 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 130 299 15 27/ 25/ 48 Uninvited John Metcalf 129 280 16 37/ 44/ 19 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 129 555 17 24/ 20/ 56 Vain Ian Oversby 128 63 18 25/ 23/ 52 Qtest Christian Schmidt 128 120 19 19/ 14/ 67 Chism John Metcalf 125 1 20 19/ 13/ 68 Chism John Metcalf 125 2 21 9/ 73/ 18 Rat Maze B. Vance Schamehorn 45 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 16 16:15:13 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GDFDj20321 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:15:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GDFA116448 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:15:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA10717; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 09:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 09:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107160400.AAA22274@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 07/16/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/16/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Jul 5 07:28:57 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 28 20 2 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 18 37 3 QuiVa John Metcalf 18 174 4 fclear Brian Haskin 16 65 5 Her Majesty P.Kline 15 100 6 test John Metcalf 12 9 7 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 9 81 8 8thTest Gino Oblena 9 12 9 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 4 1 10 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 3 6 11 botst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 2 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 16 16:15:14 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GDFEj15834 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:15:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GDFDb10010 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:15:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA10692; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 09:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 09:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107160400.AAA22278@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 07/16/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/16/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Mon Jul 9 17:10:44 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 19/ 48 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 146 31 2 39/ 35/ 26 Black Moods Ian Oversby 142 95 3 41/ 41/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 141 59 4 26/ 16/ 59 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 136 39 5 35/ 35/ 30 Ogre Christian Schmidt 134 47 6 33/ 32/ 34 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 134 99 7 31/ 30/ 39 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 133 28 8 19/ 7/ 74 Denial David Moore 131 40 9 28/ 24/ 48 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 131 38 10 17/ 7/ 76 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 127 168 11 20/ 13/ 67 Kin John Metcalf 127 7 12 14/ 4/ 81 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 124 116 13 21/ 19/ 59 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 123 121 14 15/ 6/ 79 Black Box v1.1 JKW 123 62 15 27/ 34/ 39 test CS 119 56 16 30/ 45/ 24 Pagan John K W 115 153 17 19/ 26/ 55 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 112 26 18 16/ 20/ 64 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 112 120 19 16/ 21/ 62 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 111 1 20 27/ 45/ 29 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 109 5 21 21/ 41/ 37 Request-55440 Brant D. Thomsen 102 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 16 22:35:31 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GJZVj14815 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:35:31 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6GJZS129902 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 22:35:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA13346; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: peerschaefer@gmx.net Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: peerschaefer@gmx.net (Peer Schaefer) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: [I hope this newsgroup is the right place to discuss the problems below. If not please complain and I will stop spamming] Hi there! Thanks for your kind help! "Ilmari Karonen" wrote in news:995273848.18467@itz.pp.sci.fi... > In article , Peer Schaefer wrote: > > > >Here is what I did: > >- Got ver 0.9.2. from sourceforge. > >- Inserted this line at the head of "pmars.c": > >#undef _MSC_VER [snip] > >Here is what came out: > >Compiler errors: > >- 'exit' in line 275 of 'pmars.c' is not defined (OK, that could be [snip] > >I fear I made some VERY silly mistake that perhaps could be solved by > >two keystrokes, but I don't see what it may be. I tried till my > >fingers bleed and my eyes fell out :-( and I am very frustrated now > > The "silly" mistake you've made is not using make. There should be a > "make" utility (possibly named "*make.exe" or something like that) > distributed along with your compiler, which can read the file named > "Makefile" included in the source directory. I can't use the MAKEFILE because there is no GnuC++ or WatcomC++ compiler for PocketPC/WinCE yet ;-) and the Microsoft Embedded Visual C++ for WindowsCE doesn't support MAKEFILEs (thanks to Bill Gates for that). So I can't use make and have to compile "by hand". Simply compiling "pmars.c" doesn't work because the file needs several declarations in the other files, but doesn't #include these files. So I have to compile the other files seperately and link them by hand and/or insert some #include statements into the "pmars.c"-file. I discovered that the ORDER and the PLACE of #INCLUDing is very important (that is, resulted in very different error sets). What is the right order? What are the right places? Which files must be compiled/included first? (I tried several combinations with different results, but there are obviously hundreds). Or is linking the binaries by hand the only option? (that would result in other serious problems, so I prefer the #include-solution by now). ransom@max.localdomain (Ransom Smith) wrote in message news:... > > >P.P.S.: Perhaps I am simply dumb and made some VERY silly mistake and > >are wasting your precious time. Maybe I have overlooked some > >'pMARS-compiling-FAQs' that are available or something like that. In > >this case: I am sorry and please ignore this spam. > > Most likely not. I, for example, compile with no problems using gcc in linux, > but spit out pages and pages of errors using gcc in dos. Never did get it > to compile sucessfully on my other box. > Thanks to you, Ransom, you repaired my broken self-confidence. Thanks again to you all (I hope I am no nuisance to you) Peer Schaefer From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Jul 17 15:37:50 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6HCbnj02525 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:37:50 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6HCbl102942 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:37:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA21336; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 08:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 08:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9j17tg$2gs$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pak21@cam.ac.uk Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , Peer Schaefer wrote: >[I hope this newsgroup is the right place to discuss the problems >below. If not please complain and I will stop spamming] It certainly is. Please continue :-) >Simply compiling "pmars.c" doesn't work because the file needs several >declarations in the other files, but doesn't #include these files. It shouldn't need any _declarations_ which aren't included already, but many symbols are _defined_ in separate source files. >So I have to compile the other files seperately and link them by hand This is the right way to do things, IMHO. >and/or insert some #include statements into the "pmars.c"-file. And this isn't :-) pMARS wasn't designed to be compiled this way, so I'd be very surprised if it worked. Phil -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Jul 17 16:31:55 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6HDVtj26649 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:31:55 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6HDVr106204 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:31:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA21700; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <995371711.14650@itz.pp.sci.fi> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: iltzu@sci.invalid Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ilmari Karonen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , Peer Schaefer wrote: >"Ilmari Karonen" wrote in >news:995273848.18467@itz.pp.sci.fi... >> >> The "silly" mistake you've made is not using make. There should be a >> "make" utility (possibly named "*make.exe" or something like that) > >I can't use the MAKEFILE because there is no GnuC++ or WatcomC++ >compiler for PocketPC/WinCE yet ;-) and the Microsoft Embedded Visual >C++ for WindowsCE doesn't support MAKEFILEs (thanks to Bill Gates for >that). A quick web search for "microsoft nmake url" gives: http://download.microsoft.com/download/vc15/Patch/1.52/W95/EN-US/Nmake15.exe (It's supposed to be a self-extracting archive that expands to nmake.exe and some text file. Of course, I haven't tried it myself..) -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ "It's like doping in a silicon chip. You may have noticed some of the holes floating around." -- Ken Cox in talk.origins on intelligence From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Jul 18 08:33:10 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6I5XAj23006 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:33:10 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6I5X9b05161 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:33:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA28021; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 01:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 01:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: vschamehorn@compusmart.ab.ca Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "B. Vance Schamehorn" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: looking for advice X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hello! I'm a bit new to this. I've only just begun coding a few warriors, and was looking for advice. I've written a pit trapper, with mod-5 bombing and DAT coreclear for a follow up. I am looking for a good final backup strategy -- something that maximizes survivability. If my warrior has survived to that point, then I would be more than content with a tie. I've tried pure imp-gates, as well as single and multiple imps, but wonder if there is something a bit more tenacious for those final few cycles. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance! From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Jul 18 11:35:24 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6I8ZOj25262 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:35:24 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6I8ZNb14982 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:35:23 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA00679; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 04:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 04:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <995442797.25806@itz.pp.sci.fi> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: iltzu@sci.invalid Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ilmari Karonen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: looking for advice X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , B. Vance Schamehorn wrote: >Hello! I'm a bit new to this. I've only just begun coding a few warriors, >and was looking for advice. I've written a pit trapper, with mod-5 bombing >and DAT coreclear for a follow up. I am looking for a good final backup >strategy -- something that maximizes survivability. If my warrior has Repeating coreclears with a builtin imp gate seem to be popular. That way, you still have that small chance of killing a crippled opponent even in the last few cycles. If the clear you've chosen can't be made to repeat forever, you might try to make it mutate into an imp gate or something like that. Adding a separate end-game component, however, is usually not a good idea simply because the gain is not worth the extra size. -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ "Followups to nanau, and we now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of fucking humor, fercrissake." -- Ron Parker in alt.humor.best-of-usenet.d From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Jul 18 20:35:13 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6IHZ7j29518 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:35:07 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6IHZ4104948 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:35:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA04057; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 13:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9j4e1s$ldl$1@news.tpi.pl> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mnm@apl.ok.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "hjhj" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: check my amateur porno site X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: check my amateur porno site http://bigbrother.js.pl this is made by my brother mari From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Jul 18 23:35:32 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6IKZWj03931 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:35:32 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6IKZVb22609 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:35:31 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05196; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: X@odin.ttsg.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: looking for advice X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Thanks Ilmari for the assist. I've actually tried a couple versions with repeating coreclears, but am interested in trying something different. I've tried adding SPL 0,; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 02:35:55 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6INZsb05003 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 02:35:54 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA06395; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: peerschaefer@gmx.net Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: peerschaefer@gmx.net (Peer Schaefer) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Ilmari Karonen wrote in message news:<995371711.14650@itz.pp.sci.fi>... > In article , Peer Schaefer wrote: > >"Ilmari Karonen" wrote in > >news:995273848.18467@itz.pp.sci.fi... > >> > >> The "silly" mistake you've made is not using make. There should be a > >> "make" utility (possibly named "*make.exe" or something like that) > > > >I can't use the MAKEFILE because there is no GnuC++ or WatcomC++ > >compiler for PocketPC/WinCE yet ;-) and the Microsoft Embedded Visual > >C++ for WindowsCE doesn't support MAKEFILEs (thanks to Bill Gates for > >that). > > A quick web search for "microsoft nmake url" gives: > > http://download.microsoft.com/download/vc15/Patch/1.52/W95/EN-US/Nmake15.exe > > (It's supposed to be a self-extracting archive that expands to nmake.exe > and some text file. Of course, I haven't tried it myself..) YEAH! (PARTIAL) SUCCESS! OH! (TOTAL) FAILURE! You boys are great! I thought to be a fairly experienced programmer, but in comparison to you I feel like a bungler. My excuse may be that I am a child of the Visual C++ era and are not very familiar with linkers, makefiles, dos-boxes and such stuff. Anyway, here is what happened: The good news: I got pMars compiled on my Visual C++ using the (very strange behaving) NMAKE utility. I had to fiddle around with the sourcecode, the makefile and nmake (forced some switches, modified some #ifdef-blocks to force some results, tried to find out what the -O option means, inserted paths and such), and it spit out roughly 60 warnings (and still does), but finally it worked. There is now a self-made pmars.exe on my harddisk and it seems to work. Whow! The bad news: It's the wrong Visual C++ and the wrong platfrom :-( "For practice" I compiled for the "regular" Windows for those x86 CPUs that are so popular nowadays, because that Windows has a console mode (that is: a DOS-box). But Windows for MIPS-CPU has no console mode. That results in two tasks to perform: 1. Create a windows-based user interface for pMARS (not so hard) 2. Make the pMARS-engine interact with such interface (VERY hard I suppose) The latter problem requires that I understand the pMARS-sourcecode (I am far from that now) and find out some important entry-points. The problem is worsened by the fact that I have to link all files "by hand" due to the concept of pMARS (#including simply doesn't work). Have you ever linked a windows-project by hand or with a make-utility???? Well, I at least haven't yet, and I am afraid of it (yes, you're right, I have a severe form of LINK-A-PHOBIA). I feel a little ashamed, because I consumed your precious time and - having come so far - are facing a problem that I am maybe not able to solve. Well, anyway, I have come very far, and will keep on working on the project. But for now, I will lean a little back, and after that I will try to understand the pMARS sourcecode. I am fairly convinced that this will take a while. The last days with you were amazing. Thanks to Mr. Karonen and Mr. Kendall for your kind and professional help. This is the coolest newsgroup I have ever met. Yours Peer Schaefer From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Jul 19 13:31:43 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6JAVhj32601 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:31:43 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6JAVe104971 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:31:41 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA12266; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 06:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 06:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <995534700.18625@itz.pp.sci.fi> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: iltzu@sci.invalid Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ilmari Karonen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS for PocketPC/Windows CE ? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , Peer Schaefer wrote: >That results in two tasks to perform: >1. Create a windows-based user interface for pMARS (not so hard) >2. Make the pMARS-engine interact with such interface (VERY hard I >suppose) > >The latter problem requires that I understand the pMARS-sourcecode (I >am far from that now) and find out some important entry-points. The Actually, what you're more or less doing is creating a new graphical interface. There are already several, so you can base yours on those. The necessary hooks should already exist. Of course, if you don't have a command line at all, you'll also need to handle parameter passing and console output. The obvious solution for the latter is to just have one or more text boxes for things like errors and load file output. For the former, you have to approaches: a) see what the option parsing code does and set the same variables from your user interface directly, or b) let your UI construct a command line and feed that to the option parser. If you ever get it working, I'll be more than happy to integrate it into the mainstream source. Which reminds me, I ought to get 0.9.3 out one of these days.. -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ "By blow up, I mean that you can separate a massive body into two or more parts that proceed in different directions at a high rate of speed. If you prefer the technical term, you can say that you can change its quadrapole moment." -- pervect in rec.arts.sf.science From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Jul 20 01:57:52 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6JMvpj21804 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2001 01:57:51 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6JMvnb03777 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2001 01:57:50 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA16932; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 18:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 18:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <001701c11091$0cb3d920$2100a8c0@HomePC> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ff95@dial.pipex.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Robert Macrae" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: looking for advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Status: RO X-Status: > Thanks Ilmari for the assist. I've actually tried a couple versions with > repeating coreclears, but am interested in trying something different. I've > tried adding > > SPL 0, MOV 0,1 > > to the end of my code, and I managed to boost my score against a couple of > the benchmark warriors I'm using by quite a lot. In essence, I figure that > if the opponent warrior has survived everything I can throw at it, then Plan > B (run like hell) has a certain appeal. However, I'm sure there must be > something better I could be using if my only interest is survival. Do you > have any suggestions for something short, but tough to kill? I think your code is good given your objective, because you have to be compact. After DAT bombing and clearing the only enemy likely to be active is a Paper of some kind, and falling through to an Imp will give you a good chance of converting a loss to a draw if you have survived that long. The problem with the objective is that you significantly reduce your chances against scanners by giving them a bigger target to hit, converting wins to losses which costs 3x as much as the draws you pick up. My guess is that on balance you will give away too many wins to make the extra draws worth pursuing, though it is worth checking. Regards, Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Jul 21 04:32:17 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6L1WGj20819 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 04:32:16 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6L1WEb08580 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 04:32:15 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA29181; Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 21:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: arazumo@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: arazumo@hotmail.com (Alex Razumovsky) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: CoreWars: low level of activity Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: This is probably a very naive question since I never been actively involved in CoreWars before. It appears that a level of activity in everything related to CoreWars is relatively low - not too many posts on this newsgroup, many of the Web sites dedicated to CoreWars have not been updated for a while, etc. What do you think is a root cause of it ? 1. Is it because the Imp Spiral is so omnipotent that the game is finally "resolved" ? If this is the case, then some simple modification of the rules should be able fix it. 2. Or is it because there are too many competing sets of rules, and no authority to fix that ? 3. Or may be today's computer professionals lost any interest in this kind of games, period ? Your thoughts will be appreciated, as well as suggestions how things could be improved. From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Jul 21 05:32:31 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6L2WVj07954 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 05:32:31 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6L2WS118783 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 05:32:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29711; Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:30:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <92b0a3d6.0107201147.32b5a6d@posting.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu (P. Kline) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Puff - sequentially replicating and bombing paper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Ah, to have a paper forward-bombing at c late in the battle, that would be a good way to kill imps. Paul ;redcode-94nop quiet ;name Puff ;kill Puff ;author P.Kline ;assert CORESIZE == 8000 ;strategy sequential-bombing binary paper ; demonstrating how a replicator can bomb at .5c or faster ; and kill spirals even late in the battle Puff spl 2 ,>100 ; create 10 processes spl 2 ,>200 spl 1 ,>300 spl 1 ,>400 mov <1 ,-2100 mov d1 ,>-1301 ; sequential forward bombing mov d1 ,>5334-50 r1 mov >p1 ,>c1 ; make two copies mov ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 05:39:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6L2d6119180 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 05:39:06 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29924; Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 22:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: CoreWars: low level of activity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Alex > Razumovsky > Sent: 20 juillet, 2001 21:30 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: CoreWars: low level of activity > > > This is probably a very naive question since I never been actively > involved in CoreWars before. > It appears that a level of activity in everything related to CoreWars > is relatively low - not too many posts on this newsgroup, many of the > Web sites dedicated to CoreWars have not been updated for a while, > etc. > > What do you think is a root cause of it ? > > 1. Is it because the Imp Spiral is so omnipotent that the game is > finally "resolved" ? If this is the case, then some simple > modification of the rules should be able fix it. > > 2. Or is it because there are too many competing sets of rules, and no > authority to fix that ? > > 3. Or may be today's computer professionals lost any interest in this > kind of games, period ? > > Your thoughts will be appreciated, as well as suggestions how things > could be improved. Let's answer 1 by 1 8) 1. Definitely NOT. There are many ways to deal with a sprial, and a sprial by itself rarely wins a match... Fe, check nPaper (shameless plug 8), which takes advantage of a-driven imps to win better on matches it should be tieing. 2. There's one set of rule that's used with any kind of popularity, so it's not that. 3. Don't think so. 4. ^_^ My interpretation: The instruction set has grown stale. Sure, there are many other combinations that haven't been explored, but there comes a time where people are tired of using alway the same pool. Most other games like that(the only ones that would compare would CCG and their ilks, imho) try to change the pool at regular interval, by adding certain possibilities(game peices, cards, or instructions, addressing mdoes and modifiers in this case). That way, there's always a new challenge, a new pool to try to "break", where to try and find THE combination. So, my suggestion would be adding maybe jsut one or two new elements to the game, one by one, and hold KotH tourneys with different settings; fe, only the last 4 or 5 instructions(jsut gotta make sure to rput certain basic instructions in circulation when they would rotate out), etc... Paul Khuong --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 23 16:07:58 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6ND7wj12644 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:07:58 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6ND7vb31253 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:07:57 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA24353; Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107230400.AAA17478@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 07/23/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/23/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Thu Jul 19 21:02:11 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 34/ 20/ 46 Freight Train David Moore 149 77 2 34/ 20/ 45 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 148 34 3 33/ 20/ 48 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 146 16 4 31/ 21/ 48 Guardian Ian Oversby 142 76 5 37/ 35/ 28 PacMan David Moore 139 106 6 41/ 44/ 15 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 139 73 7 40/ 44/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 136 114 8 38/ 40/ 23 Stasis David Moore 136 184 9 25/ 16/ 59 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 134 90 10 26/ 19/ 55 Jinglo John Metcalf 133 1 11 28/ 22/ 50 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 133 32 12 35/ 37/ 28 Tangle Trap David Moore 133 150 13 26/ 19/ 55 Test I Ian Oversby 132 133 14 26/ 20/ 54 Evoltmp 88 John K W 131 127 15 38/ 46/ 16 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 130 402 16 36/ 42/ 23 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 129 352 17 30/ 32/ 38 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 26 18 16/ 3/ 81 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 129 5 19 38/ 48/ 14 ig Wayne Sheppard 129 4 20 33/ 38/ 29 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 128 17 21 9/ 72/ 19 Bob Anonymous 47 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 23 16:08:19 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6ND8Jj16278 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:08:19 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6ND8G124391 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:08:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA24329; Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107230400.AAA17490@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 07/23/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/23/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Jul 22 20:27:02 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 29/ 19/ 52 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 139 189 2 40/ 41/ 19 Behemot Michal Janeczek 139 423 3 30/ 21/ 49 Inky Ian Oversby 139 79 4 39/ 44/ 18 G2-b David Moore 134 386 5 28/ 24/ 48 Olivia Ben Ford 133 328 6 38/ 44/ 18 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 133 557 7 26/ 19/ 56 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 133 600 8 29/ 26/ 46 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 132 362 9 31/ 31/ 38 Blacken Ian Oversby 132 847 10 38/ 44/ 18 Jinx Christian Schmidt 132 563 11 28/ 26/ 46 Revival Fire P.Kline 130 68 12 19/ 9/ 72 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 130 300 13 32/ 35/ 34 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 129 301 14 37/ 46/ 17 Phantasm 50 Robert Macrae 129 108 15 27/ 25/ 48 Uninvited John Metcalf 128 282 16 25/ 24/ 51 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 127 23 17 24/ 21/ 55 Vain Ian Oversby 126 65 18 39/ 51/ 10 Kenshin 2 Steve Gunnell 126 1 19 24/ 25/ 51 Qtest Christian Schmidt 122 122 20 18/ 16/ 66 Chism John Metcalf 119 3 21 17/ 24/ 59 Mr Sheen 3 Steve Gunnell 109 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 23 16:09:12 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6ND9Bj11402 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:09:11 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6ND99124463 for ; Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:09:09 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA24376; Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107230400.AAA17482@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 07/23/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/23/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Jul 5 07:28:57 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 28 20 2 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 18 37 3 QuiVa John Metcalf 18 174 4 fclear Brian Haskin 16 65 5 Her Majesty P.Kline 15 100 6 test John Metcalf 12 9 7 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 9 81 8 8thTest Gino Oblena 9 12 9 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 4 1 10 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 3 6 11 botst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 2 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Jul 24 11:50:40 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6O8obT27720 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:50:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6O8YT101115 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:34:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA03358; Tue, 24 Jul 2001 04:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 04:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: nobody@nowhere.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "anonymous" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: CodeWriter X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: This is a small and simple program I have been working on to make writing Warriors a little easier. Please look it over and tell me what you think. I am sending the project as well as the executable file because I want this to be open source software Take a look and tell me what you think! And if you know how to make a small part of the text in one part of a listbox be a different color, I would really appreciate being told how you can do it. Nuvan begin 666 CodeWriter.exe M35J0``,````$````__\``+@`````````0 `````````````````````````` M````````````````````@ ````X?N@X`M G-(;@!3,TA5&AI64 ``````.590 `%``@`P5I M``````#(6D `!@`$``````!!74 `'%U ``4`" ">7T ``````*5?0 `%``@` M@6! ``````"(8$ `!0`(`)%A0 ``````F&% ``4`" "(9$ ``````(]D0 `7 M`! `96= `)QG0 !M9T `,!% ```````!`````0```/9F0 ``````!P`(`+%K M0 #N:T `N&M `/\EY*% `/\E%*) `/\E+*) `/\ER*% `/\EM*% `/\E3*) M`/\EF*% `/\E9*) `/\EU*% `/\E8*) `/\E4*) `/\E**) `/\E`*) `/\E M)*) `/\EI*% `/\E>*% `/\E@*) `/\E=*% `/\EF*) `/\E.*) `/\EW*% M`/\E#*) `/\EE*) `/\ED*) `/\E_*% `/\EE*% `/\E'*) `/\E@*% `/\E M;*% `/\E;*) `/\EB*) `/\EC*% `/\EB*% `/\E:*% `/\E2*) `/\E?*% M`/\E6*) `/\ED*% `/\EN*% `/\EZ*% `/\EA*% `/\EH*) `/\EJ*% `/\E MA*) `/\E0*) `/\E1*) `/\EQ*% `/\E/*) `/\EG*) `/\EG*% `/\EL*% M`/\EP*% `/\ET*% `/\E^*% `/\E>*) `/\EO*% `/\E\*% `/\E]*% `/\E MC*) `/\E5*) `/\E<*) `/\E?*) `/\EX*% `/\E,*) `/\EH*% `/\E(*) M`/\E&*) `/\EK*% `/\E=*) `/\E"*) `/\E-*) `/\E7*) `/\E<*% `/\E M$*) `/\E[*% `/\E!*) `/\ES*% `/\EV*% `/\E:*) ````:/050 #H[O__ M_P```````# ```! `````````&G@8Z\&5;M(IEN]N__90W,````````!```` M````````4')O:F5C=#$```````````````#_S#$`"\>>M)%)?/='G(:P]=YG M`$KSUY&I61N01)&^K@.'F094.D^M,YEFSQ&W# "J`DP`````````````` M`````````````````````````````````,0!``!&``````<`0U=R:71E<@`- M`0L`0V]D92!7#[K2#.XJW```````` M``````````````$``````@````````````````````````````!%`0`````` M`"@Y0 #4;_8`4 ````7G>P$<\!=)B&^']GI_3S8````````````````````` M`P`````"`````````````````````````````#8!````````\#= `-1O]@!0 M````G4-*&OB=!$&[,K_>/.IA2 `````````````````````$````@ (````` M````````````````````````$@4```````!P.D `U&_V`/0!``!H*D ````` M`*!$0 `P;$ `+"$```AP0 !6$4 ``'! `"H`7 !!`$,`.@!<`% `<@!O`&<` M<@!A`&T`( !&`&D`; !E`',`7 !$`&4`=@!3`'0`=0!D`&D`;P!<`%8`0@!< M`% `<@!O`&H`90!C`'0`/ `````!``,`:"I ``````#80D ` M_____P````!,*T `8'! ``````"X8V `````````````````_!U ``$```#X M,$ ``````/P=0 `!````!!Y ````````'D `!0````0>0 `"`+ M0 #4=$ ``````&1C8@`(,4 `&#% `$ `'P`T````4"U `/____\````````` M`-0>0 #4>V(`8"U `/____] `!<`. ```"0N0 `#``,```````````!H'T ` M!'QB`"@Q0 `#``,`0 `2`#P````8,$ `! `#````````````W!] `$Q\8@`H M,$ `! `#`$ `$0! ````\"] ``(``P```````````#P@0 `\?&(`-#% ``(` M`P! `!$`1 ```/ O0 `!``,```````````"8($ `/'QB`#PQ0 `!``,`_"! 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``````@ (```````````````````````````````" ``" ````@( ` M@ ```( `@ " @ ``@(" `,# P ```/\``/\```#__P#_````_P#_`/__``#_ M__\`````````````````````````````````````__\'````````````4 "( MB/__!W `````````T%4(B(B'_P=W```````/\-!54(B(B/\'=W ```#___#0 M55#XB(__!W=W````___PT%50_XCW_P=W=P```/?_\-T%4/?___\```````#_ M__@-T%#_____````````___W@-T(___W_P```````/?___\`C_?___\````` M``#_____?_______````````___W_______W_P```````/?_______?___\` M``````#__XB/]____XB(````````C_B'B/__B(@```````````?_B(B(B `` M[NX`````,S,PCXB(``#N[@``````"P,S,P@``.[N``````````NP,S,P[NX` M````````````NP````````````````````N[NP`````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M````"JJ@`````````````````*JJ`@````````````````JJH"(````````` M``````"JJ@(@```````````````````B``````````````````JJH `````` M``````````````````````````#___P?__G #__P``?_@ `#^ ```?@```#X M````^ ``'_@``!_X```?^ ``'_@``!_X```?^ ``'_@``!_X```?P ``'X ` M`!\```/_```__X #___ ?___X/__________X?___\#___^ ?___`'___@#_ -__X!____`____X?__P`` ` end begin 666 LoadForm.frm M5D524TE/3B U+C P#0I"96=I;B!60BY&;W)M($QO861&;W)M( T*(" @0F]R M9&5R4W1Y;&4@(" @(#T@(" P(" G3F]N90T*(" @0V%P=&EO;B @(" @(" @ M(#T@(" B3&]A9"!#;V1E+BXN(@T*(" @0VQI96YT2&5I9VAT(" @(#T@(" Y M-S4-"B @($-L:65N=$QE9G0@(" @(" ](" @,3" @(" @ M(" @/2 @(#,-"B @(" @(%1O<" @(" @(" @(" @(" ](" @-#@P#0H@(" @ M("!7:61T:" @(" @(" @(" @/2 @(#$R,34-"B @($5N9 T*(" @0F5G:6X@ M5D(N0V]M;6%N9$)U='1O;B!#;VUM86YD,2 -"B @(" @($-A<'1I;VX@(" @ M(" @(" ](" @(DQO860B#0H@(" @("!(96EG:'0@(" @(" @(" @/2 @(#,W M-0T*(" @(" @3&5F=" @(" @(" @(" @(#T@(" V,# -"B @(" @(%1A8DEN M9&5X(" @(" @(" ](" @,@T*(" @(" @5&]P(" @(" @(" @(" @(#T@(" T M.# -"B @(" @(%=I9'1H(" @(" @(" @(" ](" @,3(Q-0T*(" @16YD#0H@ M("!"96=I;B!60BY497AT0F]X($QO861497AT( T*(" @(" @2&5I9VAT(" @ M(" @(" @(#T@(" R.#4-"B @(" @($QE9G0@(" @(" @(" @(" ](" @,3(P M, T*(" @(" @5&%B26YD97@@(" @(" @(#T@(" Q#0H@(" @("!4;W @(" @ M(" @(" @(" @/2 @(#$R, T*(" @(" @5VED=&@@(" @(" @(" @(#T@(" R M-C4U#0H@("!%;F0-"B @($)E9VEN(%9"+DQA8F5L($QA8F5L,2 -"B @(" @ M($-A<'1I;VX@(" @(" @(" ](" @(D-O9&4@3F%M93HB#0H@(" @("!(96EG M:'0@(" @(" @(" @/2 @(#(U-0T*(" @(" @3&5F=" @(" @(" @(" @(#T@ M(" Q,C -"B @(" @(%1A8DEN9&5X(" @(" @(" ](" @, T*(" @(" @5&]P M(" @(" @(" @(" @(#T@(" Q,C -"B @(" @(%=I9'1H(" @(" @(" @(" ] M(" @.3'0-"B @("!5;FQO860@364-"D5N9"!3=6(-"@T*4')I M=F%T92!3=6(@0V%N8V5L7T-L:6-K*"D-"B @("!5;FQO860@364-"D5N9"!3 $=6(-"@`` ` end From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Jul 24 12:34:38 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6O9YcT16308 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:34:38 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6O9Ybb17290 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:34:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA03805; Tue, 24 Jul 2001 05:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 05:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: measels@infected.co.uk Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Nuvan" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CoreWars: low level of activity X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I had an Idea. Very likely that it won't catch on but hey, I'll never know unless i tell people, eh? Anyway, what I was thinking is this: the KotH and Pizza servers have ranked hills correct? Why not expand the instruction set with 3 to 6 new commands. Set up the ranked hills so that when you start off, you have access to only a few commands. This would put you in with Warriors more your league. If you are good, you advance. I noticed the Pizza servers have a retirement age. Why not have the retirement age, instead be an advancement age, you hit it, and go up a notch. Then you have access to more advanced commands, and can build better warriors. Right now there are 19 instructions. Perhaps up it to 25 instructions, and then split the hills off into 5 rankings. each ranking gets 5 more commands than the last one. That would probably increase the intrest a bit Well, there's my two bits. Nuvan From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Jul 24 12:35:36 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6O9ZaT00165 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:35:36 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6O9ZZb14208 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:35:35 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA03786; Tue, 24 Jul 2001 05:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 05:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: nobody@nowhere.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "anonymous" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: CodeWriter X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Also, if someone could rewrite this in C or C++ that would be good because I don't have the programming skill to do that. Any requests for features post them in reply, and I may actually get to them someday. Nuvan From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Jul 26 21:36:26 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6QIaKT29586 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:36:20 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6QIaG114576 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:36:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28097; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9jpl8i$a4q$1@news.tpi.pl> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: michal@pirat.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "N0w^k" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I'm looking for graphical MARS for windows (or linux KDE but i prefer windows) witch ICWS'94 standard. From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Jul 26 22:00:46 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6QJ0kT16638 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:00:46 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6QJ0jb23259 for ; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:00:45 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28263; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of N0w^k > Sent: 26 juillet, 2001 14:32 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) > > > I'm looking for graphical MARS for windows (or linux KDE but i prefer > windows) witch ICWS'94 standard. Use pmarsv 286. It's graphical version of pmars, compiled for 286(so it'll run under windows) Check koth.org, link sections. it should be there, somewhere 8) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Jul 27 04:37:59 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6R1bvT07461 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 04:37:57 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6R1bp124394 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 04:37:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA01547; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 21:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9jqb9q$mde$1@news.tpi.pl> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: michal@pirat.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "N0w^k" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > Use pmarsv 286. It's graphical version of pmars, compiled for 286(so it'll > run under windows) Check koth.org, link sections. it should be there, > somewhere 8) pmars is good but i want something more visual. pmars is graphical but hard to see what is going on. Sorry for my English language ;) It's not perfect. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Jul 27 14:13:44 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6RBDhT07253 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:13:43 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6RBDd112761 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:13:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA06622; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 07:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 07:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of N0w^k > Sent: 26 juillet, 2001 21:35 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) > > > > Use pmarsv 286. It's graphical version of pmars, compiled for > 286(so it'll > > run under windows) Check koth.org, link sections. it should be there, > > somewhere 8) > > pmars is good but i want something more visual. pmars is > graphical but hard > to see what is going on. > > Sorry for my English language ;) It's not perfect. uh?? Are you talking about pmarsv or pmars?? They aren't the same, you know?? Also, try pmarsv in SVGA mode... Anyway, i doubt you'll find anything better. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Jul 27 20:32:30 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6RHWTT21132 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:32:30 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6RHWSb25323 for ; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:32:28 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA09032; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9js6o3$b7v$1@wanadoo.fr> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: Rousseau.jean-Pierre@wanadoo.fr Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "RS" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: under windows pmarsv fails with corewiew mode under ms dos it fails too : no dpmi... any idea? RS From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Jul 28 03:45:53 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6S0jrT08568 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2001 03:45:53 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6S0jqb02174 for ; Sat, 28 Jul 2001 03:45:52 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA11964; Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of RS > Sent: 27 juillet, 2001 13:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) > > > under windows pmarsv fails with corewiew mode > under ms dos it fails too : no dpmi... Like i said in a previous post, you need to get the pmarsv for 286 version, if you intend to use the SVGA display under windows. Under ms dos, you need to get a dos extender(dpmi.exe... should be in the DOS distrib) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Jul 29 00:35:46 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6SLZkT29044 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 00:35:46 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6SLZg119864 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 00:35:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA20859; Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: foehg@localhost.localdomain Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: foehg@localhost.localdomain (Ransom Smith) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 27 Jul 2001 19:02:49 +0200, RS wrote: > under windows pmarsv fails with corewiew mode > under ms dos it fails too : no dpmi... > Sounds like you compiled w/djgpp and forgot to include a copy of cwsdpmi in the working directory. -- [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] I reserve the right to be normal, at any time and without notice. From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Jul 29 12:36:55 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6T9arT27325 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 12:36:53 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6T9an126899 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 12:36:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA26345; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 05:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 05:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9k0he5$hq6$1@news.netcologne.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: nc-zapfsa@netcologne.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Sascha Zapf To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Paper, Stone and Scissor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hi, i have problems to understand the meaning of the Paper->Stone->Scissor analogy. Today's Warriors are often more than one of these. Some Years ago, a Warrior was a Stone or a Paper or a Scissor. And often the Stone beats the Scissor but Sometimes the Scissor beats the Stone..So.. Paper beats Stone beats Scissor beats Paper.... is not really what going on. What Categorie are Imp's ? I think more Stone, but crawling through the Core can be a Paper too! Sascha PS: What is the meaning of "HSA-Style" or "HSA-Type" ? From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Jul 29 22:32:11 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6TJWAT27737 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 22:32:10 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6TJW7107394 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 22:32:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA29718; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 15:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 15:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: vschamehorn@compusmart.ab.ca Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "B. Vance Schamehorn" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: cannot submit warrior to pizza X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I seems to be having difficulty submitting warriors to the beginner's hill on the Pizza server. I follow the instructions in the corewar FAQ, sending the e-mail to pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu with "koth" as the subject and using ";redcode-b quiet" (without the quotes) as the first line of the warrior, but I only receive an e-mail delivery report stating something to the effect that there is no user "pizza" at that address. How do I submit a warrior to the beginner's hill? From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Jul 29 23:31:47 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6TKVkT19608 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 23:31:47 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6TKVh108593 for ; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 23:31:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00221; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:30:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 16:30:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9k1ms6$b8e$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pak21@cam.ac.uk Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: cannot submit warrior to pizza X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , B. Vance Schamehorn wrote: >I seems to be having difficulty submitting warriors to the beginner's hill >on the Pizza server. I follow the instructions in the corewar FAQ, sending >the e-mail to pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu with "koth" as the subject and using >";redcode-b quiet" (without the quotes) as the first line of the warrior, >but I only receive an e-mail delivery report stating something to the effect >that there is no user "pizza" at that address. How do I submit a warrior to >the beginner's hill? That's the correct method; if it's not working, it probably means that something is fubared at Pizza. I've just tested it, and get the same problem :-( Phil -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 30 00:19:56 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6TLJuT07204 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:19:56 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6TLJq109564 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 00:19:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA00589; Sun, 29 Jul 2001 17:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 17:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Paper, Stone and Scissor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Sascha > Zapf > Sent: 29 juillet, 2001 05:35 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Paper, Stone and Scissor > > > Hi, > > i have problems to understand the meaning of the Paper->Stone->Scissor > analogy. Today's Warriors are often more than one of these. Some > Years ago, > a Warrior was a Stone or a Paper or a Scissor. And often the Stone beats > the Scissor but Sometimes the Scissor beats the Stone..So.. > > Paper beats Stone beats Scissor beats Paper.... > > is not really what going on. > > What Categorie are Imp's ? I think more Stone, but crawling through the > Core can be a Paper too! Imp doesn't count as a warrior, imho. It's a staying alive component at best. As such, it helps pure stones be more resiliant to paper, but the stone is still a stone that has a hard time dealing with papers(esp. imp killing ones). Let's take the standard Q^3 that everyone and their dog slap in front of their warriors(no offence meant 8)...Is it a warrior? Imho, no. It's just a component, and while it is an interesting start that give some free points, it doesn't mean a paper is suddenly a scissor. So, jsut look at the main component. True and good multi component warriors are very rare, and rarely succesful, it seems. Oh, and if you were the one with the HSA question: HSA=He Scans Alone, a scanner by Paul Kline(not pk. pk is ME! agh 8). The revolutionnary thing in that program was the bombing sequence: mov bomb, ptr jmn.f -2, >ptr That is some very subtle imp hate. If the scanner ever scans an imp's trail(almost bound to happen 8), the bombing component will: 1. Set up a b-gate 2. bomb the trail, but advance faster than the imp will, so at one time or another, it will overwrite the instruction to be executed, probably. If it scans something else, it gives a temporary gate, and completely bombs the non zero cells of the warrior, until the jmn encounter a blank, thus the carpet won't waste time on a small component, and won't be too short. Another very interesting innovation 8) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 30 12:33:07 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6U9X6T08360 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:33:07 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6U9X2103706 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 12:33:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA06476; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 05:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 05:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9k36kk$ugd$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pak21@cam.ac.uk Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Paper, Stone and Scissor X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , Paul Khuong wrote: > >Imp doesn't count as a warrior, imho. It's a staying alive component at >best. Only because modern warriors are designed to be resilient to imps; when The Impire Strikes Back first hit the hill, it _destroyed_ it. Phil -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 30 13:51:32 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6UApVT04846 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:51:31 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6UApQ111293 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:51:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA06973; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107300400.AAA05446@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 07/30/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/30/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Fri Jul 27 06:40:01 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 40/ 40/ 20 Behemot Michal Janeczek 139 423 2 28/ 19/ 53 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 138 189 3 29/ 21/ 50 Inky Ian Oversby 137 79 4 39/ 43/ 18 G2-b David Moore 135 386 5 29/ 24/ 48 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 134 362 6 38/ 44/ 18 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 133 557 7 38/ 44/ 18 Jinx Christian Schmidt 132 563 8 25/ 19/ 56 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 132 600 9 27/ 23/ 49 Olivia Ben Ford 131 328 10 31/ 31/ 39 Blacken Ian Oversby 131 847 11 32/ 34/ 34 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 131 301 12 38/ 45/ 17 Phantasm 50 Robert Macrae 130 108 13 27/ 25/ 47 Revival Fire P.Kline 130 68 14 19/ 8/ 73 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 129 300 15 39/ 50/ 10 Kenshin 2 Steve Gunnell 128 1 16 26/ 25/ 49 Uninvited John Metcalf 127 282 17 25/ 24/ 52 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 126 23 18 23/ 21/ 56 Vain Ian Oversby 125 65 19 23/ 25/ 52 Qtest Christian Schmidt 122 122 20 17/ 16/ 66 Chism John Metcalf 119 3 21 8/ 18/ 73 Tzu Su (nop) Tascón 98 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 30 13:51:58 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6UApwT01500 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:51:58 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6UApr111356 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:51:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA06997; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107300400.AAA05442@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 07/30/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/30/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Fri Jul 27 07:10:36 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 35/ 19/ 46 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 150 31 2 40/ 34/ 26 Black Moods Ian Oversby 146 95 3 41/ 40/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 143 59 4 27/ 15/ 58 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 138 39 5 36/ 34/ 30 Ogre Christian Schmidt 137 47 6 32/ 30/ 38 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 135 28 7 31/ 33/ 36 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 130 99 8 26/ 24/ 51 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 128 38 9 17/ 7/ 76 Denial David Moore 128 40 10 15/ 7/ 78 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 124 168 11 28/ 33/ 39 test CS 124 56 12 18/ 13/ 69 Kin John Metcalf 123 7 13 13/ 4/ 82 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 122 116 14 14/ 6/ 80 Black Box v1.1 JKW 122 62 15 32/ 44/ 24 Pagan John K W 119 153 16 19/ 19/ 63 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 119 121 17 29/ 43/ 29 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 115 5 18 17/ 25/ 58 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 109 26 19 14/ 20/ 66 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 108 120 20 14/ 21/ 64 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 107 1 21 7/ 31/ 62 Tzu Su (nop) Tascón 84 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 30 13:52:03 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6UAq3T00797 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:52:03 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6UApx111385 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 13:51:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA07020; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 06:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200107300400.AAA05438@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 07/30/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 07/30/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Fri Jul 27 06:41:47 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 test John Metcalf 21 10 2 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 20 82 3 Her Majesty P.Kline 17 101 4 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 16 21 5 8thTest Gino Oblena 15 13 6 fclear Brian Haskin 14 66 7 QuiVa John Metcalf 14 175 8 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 11 38 9 nikko dr.trunkenbold 2 1 10 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 0 7 11 Tzu Su (nop) Tascón 0 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Jul 30 19:00:48 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6UG0lJ04356 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:00:47 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6UG0Zu05017 for ; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 19:00:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA08376; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:32:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:32:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: foehg@localhost.localdomain Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: foehg@localhost.localdomain (Ransom Smith) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: cannot submit warrior to pizza X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 29 Jul 2001 12:21:42 -0600, B. Vance Schamehorn wrote: > I seems to be having difficulty submitting warriors to the beginner's hill > on the Pizza server. I follow the instructions in the corewar FAQ, sending > the e-mail to pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu with "koth" as the subject and using > ";redcode-b quiet" (without the quotes) as the first line of the warrior, > but I only receive an e-mail delivery report stating something to the effect > that there is no user "pizza" at that address. How do I submit a warrior to > the beginner's hill? Yes, I noticed that the other day. You seem to be doing it right. I bet it will iron itself out pretty quick. -- [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] I reserve the right to be normal, at any time and without notice. From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Jul 31 03:54:04 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6V0s3J18882 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2001 03:54:03 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6V0s2525730 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2001 03:54:03 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA12093; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 20:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 20:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Paper, Stone and Scissor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Philip > Kendall > Sent: 30 juillet, 2001 05:32 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: Paper, Stone and Scissor > > > In article , > Paul Khuong wrote: > > > >Imp doesn't count as a warrior, imho. It's a staying alive component at > >best. > > Only because modern warriors are designed to be resilient to imps; when > The Impire Strikes Back first hit the hill, it _destroyed_ it. Erhm... Yeah ^_^ But still, nowadays, would you really use a spiral and try to rack wins with it?? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Jul 31 05:37:14 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6V2bEJ24291 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2001 05:37:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6V2bDu28383 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2001 05:37:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA13018; Mon, 30 Jul 2001 22:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 22:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B6611AC.5A983A76@erols.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: dbhillis@erols.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Hillis To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: cannot submit warrior to pizza Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: "B. Vance Schamehorn" wrote: > > I seems to be having difficulty submitting warriors to the beginner's hill > on the Pizza server. I follow the instructions in the corewar FAQ, sending > the e-mail to pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu with "koth" as the subject and using > ";redcode-b quiet" (without the quotes) as the first line of the warrior, > but I only receive an e-mail delivery report stating something to the effect > that there is no user "pizza" at that address. How do I submit a warrior to > the beginner's hill? Pizza has been non-functional for some weeks - kind of a chronic situation. You might like to try some of the hills at http:\\koth.org or http://corewars.sourceforge.net/ Dave Hillis From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Jul 31 23:33:07 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6VKX6J13358 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2001 23:33:06 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f6VKX3u14877 for ; Tue, 31 Jul 2001 23:33:04 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA21453; Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:30:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:30:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3b670474$1_1@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: Alt.PH.UK@jelly4all.worldonline.co.uk.NOSPAM Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "PapaLazarus" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CoreWars: low level of activity X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: IMHO I used to get sent a 5.25inch disk in the post each month from a software club, one day it held corewar & it gripped me for months. I saw the 'Imp' & the 'Dwarf', the code I could read & work out in my head. It may have been easy for *me* to read due to my Z80 programming. I came back in the late 90's, the instruction set was bigger but the addressing didn't flow in easily my mind, to me it now looked 80x86 compiler based. I thought the idear in the begining of corewar wsa that micro-engineers & programmers used a language like that every day & corewar provided a way to display there skills head-to-head. If corewar is to be brought into the age of the macro dosn't it need to be a toy for those who program experience is M$-macros, C++ or even work it around exel. A spread-sheet version of corewar wouldn't be that different to the original concept, people work with Boolean logic & simple datum processing that the commands could be based around. I'll work on the idear & post again if I come up with any insights. Yours PapaLazarus P.S. Anyone here going to Hal2001? TTFN From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Aug 1 17:36:32 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f71EaWJ27926 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2001 17:36:32 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f71EaU519385 for ; Wed, 1 Aug 2001 17:36:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00601; Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:34:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:34:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9k8v24$grq$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pak21@cam.ac.uk Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Paper, Stone and Scissor X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , Paul Khuong wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Philip >> Kendall >> >> In article , >> Paul Khuong wrote: >> > >> >Imp doesn't count as a warrior, imho. It's a staying alive component at >> >best. >> >> Only because modern warriors are designed to be resilient to imps; when >> The Impire Strikes Back first hit the hill, it _destroyed_ it. >Erhm... Yeah ^_^ > >But still, nowadays, would you really use a spiral and try to rack wins with >it?? I'd be interested to see what it would do on the Beginner Hill -- is it back up yet? Phil -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 2 00:37:19 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f71LbIJ00884 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:37:18 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f71LbFu03253 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:37:16 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA03342; Wed, 1 Aug 2001 17:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 17:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9k9o4u$p87$1@news.tpi.pl> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: roszfor@wp.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Roszfor" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: help X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Uzytkownik "Gold" napisal w wiadomosci news:3B4BEED3.5000905@SPAMTRAP.babel.com.au... > Thanks for that Paul. > > I think this is kinda making sense > > Really appreciate the effort and look forward to the next installment. :) > > I'm gonna go hit the sites Benjamin posted also. See if that can build > on what you've started too. > > Cheers, > Gold > > > Paul Khuong wrote: > > > OK... First, corewarriors are programmed in an assembly like language. > > You'll find basic info in the pMars package, so i won't explain everyone of > > these opcodes 8) > > > > However, i'm going to explain addressing modes and instruction modifiers, > > sicne they seem to be a BIG obstacle for many. > > > > The basics of corewar: > > 1. Corewarriors are run in a flat memory ("core") that rolls around. IE, if > > you had a core of size 100 "memory cells"(a), pointing to address 100 or 0 > > would point tot he exact same place. Standard coresize is 8000. That core is > > numbered from 0 to (core size-1) > > 2. Addressing is relative to the instruction that is being executed. IE, > > there is no "real" address, except that for the sake of simplicity, the > > debugger assumes that the start of the first warrior is cell 0. > > For example: > > We ahve a program: > > [line 1:points to 1 and 2] > > [line 2:points to 1] > > [line 3:points to -2] > > *line=cell, sine you can only have one instruction/line, and one instruction > > = 1 cell(aaah, the simplicity 8) > > If line one points to "1", it will point to line 2. if it points to "2", it > > will point to line 3. However, if line two points to "1", it will point to > > line 3. And, if, for example, line 3 points to -2, it will point to line 1. > > BUT, there are no negatives in corewar. Negative numbers are converted to > > [coresize+negative number]. For example, if we had a coresize of 5 in the > > example above, line 3 would actually point to [5+-2=3], sicne everything > > rolls around. > > 3. Every programm can spawn multiple processes(threads). BUT, whenever you > > spawn a new thread, each thread runs at a smaller speed, since they all > > share the same computer time. Also, each corewarrior execute one fo their > > process one at a time from the process queue, in turn. > > So, let's say Warrior 1 had this queue: > > Part 1.3 > > part 1.1 > > part 1.2 > > And warrior 2 had: > > part 2.1 > > part 2.2 > > > > Then, they would execute in this order: > > part 1.3 > > part 2.1 > > Part 1.1 > > part 2.2 > > Part 1.2 > > Part 2.1 > > > > See? > > > > basic part of an instruction: > > Opcode(MOV, ADD, etc).[instruction modifier(changes how the opcode works] > > [addressing mode A(see below)] Address_A, [addressing mode B] Address_B > > > > Addressing mode+address is known as field. so, there are an A- and a B- > > field. > > > > OK. addressing modes: > > there three basic sorts of addressings: > > Direct > > Normal > > Indirect > > > > Direct:(identifier for direct addressing mode:#) Points to the instruction > > itself,no matter what comes after the #. > > For example, JMZ somewhere, #3 > > JMZ checks tos ee if the address pointed to by the B field is zero. BUT, if > > ahs to check that on either part A, B, or A and B of the isntruction the > > b-field points to. That's what the instruction modifier changes. JMZ assumes > > that it checks b-field, though, by default. > > SO, what address does it check? "0", sicne # make it so it ALWAYS point to > > itself. What part of the command does it check? b-field, since that's what > > it does by default. Is the b-field of jmz somewhere, #3 equal to 0? 3 isn't > > 0, so it doesn't jump to somewhere. > > > > ugh... > > > > it's getting long 8) How about we call it a day for now. Post ehre for what > > you don't understand(not if, i KNOW i'll have to reexaplin everything bc i > > suck at explaining stuff 8) > > > > HTH, > > Paul Khuong(NOT KLINE) > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.264 / Virus Database: 136 - Release Date: 01-07-02 > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 2 02:19:31 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f71NJUJ07742 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2001 02:19:31 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f71NJT504793 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2001 02:19:29 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA04120; Wed, 1 Aug 2001 19:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 19:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108011709.f71H9cu13989@andromeda.ociw.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: birk@andromeda.ociw.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: birk@andromeda.ociw.edu To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Paper, Stone and Scissor X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: >>> Only because modern warriors are designed to be resilient to imps; when >>> The Impire Strikes Back first hit the hill, it _destroyed_ it. >>Erhm... Yeah ^_^ >> >>But still, nowadays, would you really use a spiral and try to rack wins with >>it?? > >I'd be interested to see what it would do on the Beginner Hill "The Impire Strikes Back" is on rank 189 of 533 on the '88-Koenigstuhl. (http://www.ociw.edu/~birk/COREWAR/koenigstuhl.html) Christoph From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 2 04:50:37 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f721obJ16228 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2001 04:50:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f721oau17106 for ; Thu, 2 Aug 2001 04:50:36 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA05241; Wed, 1 Aug 2001 21:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 21:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Roszfor > Sent: 1 août, 2001 17:35 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: help > > > > Uzytkownik "Gold" napisal w wiadomosci > news:3B4BEED3.5000905@SPAMTRAP.babel.com.au... > > Thanks for that Paul. > > > > I think this is kinda making sense > > > > Really appreciate the effort and look forward to the next > installment. :) > > > > I'm gonna go hit the sites Benjamin posted also. See if that can build > > on what you've started too. > > > > Cheers, > > Gold Oh great... Is that supposed to be a call from somewhere to continue it? ^_^ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 3 04:36:05 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f731a5J26138 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 04:36:05 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f731a4510104 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 04:36:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA16127; Thu, 2 Aug 2001 21:34:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 21:34:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9kct09$6ha$1@ins21.netins.net> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: shook69@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Eric Shook" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CoreWars: low level of activity X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I am new to the game also, and I believe that is a good idea. That way it gives us newby coder's a chance to survive in the uber proggers world. I think the only way that this will work, is if you figure out what goes where, so I guess, just start researching, and make a complete plan, and repost, see what happens shook69 Alex Razumovsky wrote in message news:b16adcc4.0107182049.578517f6@posting.google.com... > This is probably a very naive question since I never been actively > involved in CoreWars before. > It appears that a level of activity in everything related to CoreWars > is relatively low - not too many posts on this newsgroup, many of the > Web sites dedicated to CoreWars have not been updated for a while, > etc. > > What do you think is a root cause of it ? > > 1. Is it because the Imp Spiral is so omnipotent that the game is > finally "resolved" ? If this is the case, then some simple > modification of the rules should be able fix it. > > 2. Or is it because there are too many competing sets of rules, and no > authority to fix that ? > > 3. Or may be today's computer professionals lost any interest in this > kind of games, period ? > > Your thoughts will be appreciated, as well as suggestions how things > could be improved. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 3 16:31:52 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f73DVpJ25064 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 16:31:51 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f73DVp515217 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 16:31:51 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA21903; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <965ba118.7663362656.ced33d44@posting1.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: sorbus_rowan@my-deja.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: sorbus_rowan@my-deja.com (A. Jarvis) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: re: One more overloaded artichoke or arena, and she'll wanly relay everybody. X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hi Rob ... You're still chasing Road Runner proxies, and you haven't even begun to address Chello, Wanadoo, BTinternet, Demon, @Home, Sympatico, BellGlogal, Bigpond, Telstra, OptusNet, Telia, Telus, SkyNet, etc etc. And those are only the ones you've SEEN (ab)used so far. How many more are there? Shortage of servers? Not hardly. ... HipCrime -- Go relay a data haven! Who will we eat after Karl saves the slow DEA's stack? Will you buy inside the mail server, if Madeleine seemingly saves the mouse? Why did Estefana confront on all the analysts? We can't post bugs unless Ronette will inadvertently sell afterwards. Tell Norris it's stuck takeing to a toffee. Hey, Usha never transports until Shelly questions the sticky firewall wastefully. Other foolish untouched engineers will vend wistfully throughout quarters. Dave wants to eliminate admiringly, unless Neal prioritizes librarians throughout Joie's text. The resilient retarded users wrongly burst as the blank operators collaborate. Let's pump beside the inner printers, but don't learn the surreptitious tablets. Just interfaceing for a Pascal about the hard disk is too overloaded for Dolf to consume it. Many dumb condors are strong and other sharp functions are opaque, but will Brian kill that? One more nuclear administrator or CERT, and she'll sneakily create everybody. Chris infects, then Peter frantically disconnects a usable interrupt inside Dave's satellite. I'd rather spool incredibly than dig with Isabelle's useless trackball. The stupid dense algorithm negotiates credit cards without Rose's shiny warning. As sadly as Andrew annoys, you can generate the fax machine much more fully. What will you filter the chosen upper machines before Roger does? These days, IPaddrs roll within new /dev/nulls, unless they're idle. I corrupt flat errors on the fast hard Win Gate, whilst Susan halfheartedly manages them too. Dolf will biweekly stop around Alexis when the sly computers train over the unclassified underground. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 3 17:33:12 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f73EXCJ05160 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 17:33:12 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f73EXBn03407 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 17:33:11 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA22293; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <10d4d317.8521001538.6d97d75d@posting1.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: icaeruleo@my-deja.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Andrew Disch" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: re: Try washing the network's discarded rumour and Endora will infect you! X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hi Rob ... You're still chasing Road Runner proxies, and you haven't even begun to address Chello, Wanadoo, BTinternet, Demon, @Home, Sympatico, BellGlogal, Bigpond, Telstra, OptusNet, Telia, Telus, SkyNet, etc etc. And those are only the ones you've SEEN (ab)used so far. How many more are there? Shortage of servers? Not hardly. ... HipCrime -- I'd rather start quietly than confront with Dolf's slow client. To be powerful or ignorant will disrupt sharp llamas to gently vexate. If you will tolerate Jethro's IRC server with discs, it will bimonthly dump the investigator. Pete, have a idiotic workstation. You won't spool it. When will we push after Roger builds the specialized data bus's firewall? Just distributeing behind a credit card over the eternity server is too usable for Yolanda to place it. It's very fake today, I'll corrupt partly or Jeff will proliferate the tablets. If the filthy Javas can relay finally, the sticky fraud may take more signs. Tell Dickie it's huge meeting around a monitor. The backdoors, advertisements, and texts are all blank and unlimited. The strange bronze PGP types desktops behind Robbie's minor newbie. Alvin wants to manage partially, unless Endora produces robots within Alexandra's thought. Don't even try to smile compleatly while you're saveing over a idle enigma. When will you open the erect junk subroutines before Austin does? When Gay's major operator buys, Corey propagates around useless, rough cyberspaces. Until Cristof formats the keyholes monthly, Kaye won't prioritize any dumb kiosks. Go generate a ActiveX! From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 3 18:35:31 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f73FZVJ14064 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 18:35:31 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f73FZUn12349 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 18:35:30 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA22874; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: spicy_crust@my-deja.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Liz Z. Madison" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: re: We gently infect alongside moronic nuclear cybercafes. X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hi Rob ... You're still chasing Road Runner proxies, and you haven't even begun to address Chello, Wanadoo, BTinternet, Demon, @Home, Sympatico, BellGlogal, Bigpond, Telstra, OptusNet, Telia, Telus, SkyNet, etc etc. And those are only the ones you've SEEN (ab)used so far. How many more are there? Shortage of servers? Not hardly. ... HipCrime -- Who will you vexate the actual dumb cables before Richard does? Let's examine alongside the closed SOCKSs, but don't interface the stupid advisors. It crawls, you save, yet Richard never gently gets in front of the Back Orifice. Many worthwhile scanners are unlimited and other cosmetic proxys are silly, but will Austin spool that? Until Ronald stops the blackbirds mercilessly, Geoffrey won't propagate any secret interfaces. Other violent idiotic subroutines will generate weekly throughout webmasters. He will corrupt weekly if Norbert's Blowfish isn't loud. The specialized backup rarely moans Cristof, it causes Dickie instead. Margaret will disconnect the filthy pseudonym and eliminate it beside its module. The sharp lower stack kills desktops to Ella's major trackball. While machines strangely dream routers, the printers often collaborate outside the root screens. Why will we inflate after Junior rolls the unclassified doorway's ActiveX? Nowadays Kathy will proliferate the Java, and if Grover quickly preserves it too, the postmaster will sell inside the robust IRC server. If the moronic engineers can train stupidly, the opaque ISDN may cry more undergrounds. Go recycle a network! If you will close Jonas's signal against Pascals, it will seemingly dig the admin. Just typeing in a archive inside the field is too disgusting for Quinton to obscure it. These days, Walter never contributes until Georgette facilitates the flat CDROM monthly. Otherwise the procedure in Winifred's mouse might jump some sticky telephones. Try defileing the eternity server's bright basement and Marilyn will put you! As finally as Wayne slumps, you can pump the administrator much more strongly. It's very pathetic today, I'll distribute quietly or Ratana will prioritize the operators. Who Junior's weird cryptographer takes, Tony locates within sly, unique web pages. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 3 19:37:22 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f73GbMJ18535 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 19:37:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f73GbL522397 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 19:37:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA23384; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:35:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:35:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <0248d7a7.2618062136.b0cd76b0@posting1.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: icaeruleo@my-deja.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Madeleine Disch" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: re: It insulates, you generate, yet Tommy never happily bursts around the store. X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hi Rob ... You're still chasing Road Runner proxies, and you haven't even begun to address Chello, Wanadoo, BTinternet, Demon, @Home, Sympatico, BellGlogal, Bigpond, Telstra, OptusNet, Telia, Telus, SkyNet, etc etc. And those are only the ones you've SEEN (ab)used so far. How many more are there? Shortage of servers? Not hardly. ... HipCrime -- Don't try to save inadvertently while you're loading with a tall machine. The terminals, warnings, and functions are all ignorant and untamed. As easily as Jessica manages, you can open the ethernet much more gently. The flat Java rarely filters Sarah, it fetchs Roberta instead. Let's delete in the fast CIAs, but don't annoy the resilient sattelite phones. Why Zephram's usable ISDN corrupts, Georgette beats behind dense, useless interfaces. Pete wants to cause actually, unless Quincy kicks librarians in Kaye's IPaddr. Where did Willy disappear at all the errors? We can't format advisors unless Neil will daily defile afterwards. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 3 20:32:26 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f73HWPJ23265 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 20:32:25 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f73HWP524056 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 20:32:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA23794; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:30:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:30:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3387845d.3078828706.e6300fc3@posting1.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: spicy_crust@chickenboner.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: spicy_crust@chickenboner.com (K. Bush) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: re: Eve will persevere the unlimited memory and substantiate it around its complaint desk. X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hi Rob ... You're still chasing Road Runner proxies, and you haven't even begun to address Chello, Wanadoo, BTinternet, Demon, @Home, Sympatico, BellGlogal, Bigpond, Telstra, OptusNet, Telia, Telus, SkyNet, etc etc. And those are only the ones you've SEEN (ab)used so far. How many more are there? Shortage of servers? Not hardly. ... HipCrime -- Well Jimmie will load the administrator, and if Mark wickedly kills it too, the ROM will persevere over the fake cleartext. Where Marilyn's root data haven gets, Ronnie generates on wet, messy cellars. Patrice wants to prepare halfheartedly, unless Robette reloads enigmas over Dick's error. Try eliminateing the hard disk's retarded ActiveX and Sheri will negotiate you! Robbie will collaborate the weak subroutine and vend it near its office. My untouched government won't disconnect before I float it. Do not rebuild annually while you're takeing on a robust ADSL. To be plastic or blank will train cold laptops to lazily contradict. Claude will sneakily examine for Jonathan when the erect tapes defeat at the actual chameleon. While telephones partially locate warnings, the admins often corrupt in the useless memorys. The fast secret UDP knows workstations within Claude's veggie tablet. Otherwise the MPEG in Genevieve's machine might meet some ignorant pseudonyms. If you will wash Edwin's haven in gorillas, it will daily buy the procedure. I'd rather question absolutely than post with Martin's outer rebel. The rumours, investigators, and trackballs are all cosmetic and insecure. If you'll open Pamela's satellite with secure shells, it'll simply obscure the sattelite phone. I recycle secure programmers near the out-of-date discarded peapod, whilst Pilar stupidly moans them too. He will pull finally if Bruce's keyhole isn't lower. If the usable JPEGs can produce familiarly, the loud server may create more folders. Who deletes wastefully, when Norbert beats the bizarre dictionary within the FTP server? From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 6 05:32:25 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f762WOJ09349 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 05:32:24 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f762WNn11166 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 05:32:23 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17156; Sun, 5 Aug 2001 22:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 22:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9kkt7h$c01$1@news.asu.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: sieben@imap1.asu.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: sieben@imap1.asu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CoreWars: low level of activity X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: A hill with white warriors may generate some activity. It would certanly be a very unstable hill. It may be necessary to add some new instructions for hiding a few lines of code. Nandor From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 6 12:34:49 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f769YmJ22383 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:34:48 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f769Yl504366 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:34:47 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA21131; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 05:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 05:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: anton@paradise.net.nz Originator: faqserv@penguin-lust.mit.edu Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: anton@paradise.net.nz (Anton Marsden) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Core War Frequently Asked Questions (rec.games.corewar FAQ) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Archive-name: games/corewar-faq Last-Modified: September 4, 1999 Version: 4.2 URL: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.html Copyright: (c) 1999 Anton Marsden Maintainer: Anton Marsden Posting-Frequency: once every 2 weeks Core War Frequently Asked Questions (rec.games.corewar FAQ) These are the Frequently Asked Questions (and answers) from the Usenet newsgroup rec.games.corewar. A plain text version of this document is posted every two weeks. The latest hypertext version is available at http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.html and the latest plain text version is available at http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.txt. This document is currently being maintained by Anton Marsden (anton@paradise.net.nz). Last modified: Sat Sep 4 00:22:22 NZST 1999 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To Do * Add the new No-PSpace '94 hill location * Add online location of Dewdney's articles * Make question 17 easier to understand. Add a state diagram? * Add info about infinite hills, related games (C-Robots, Tierra?, ...) * New question: How do I know if my warrior is any good? Refer to beginners' benchmarks, etc. * Add a Who's Who list? * Would very much like someone to compile a collection of the "revolutionary" warriors so that beginners can see how the game has developed over the years. Mail me if interested. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ What's New * Changed primary location of FAQ (again!) * Changed Philip Kendall's home page address. * Updated list server information * Changed primary location of FAQ * Vector-launching code was fixed thanks to Ting Hsu. * Changed the location of Ryan Coleman's paper (LaunchPad -> Launchpad) * Changed pauillac.inria.fr to para.inria.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Table of Contents 1. What is Core War 2. Is it "Core War" or "Core Wars"? 3. Where can I find more information about Core War? 4. Core War has changed since Dewdney's articles. Where do I get a copy of the current instruction set? 5. What is ICWS'94? Which simulators support ICWS'94? 6. What is the ICWS? 7. What is Core Warrior? 8. Where are the Core War archives? 9. Where can I find a Core War system for ...? 10. Where can I find warrior code? 11. I do not have FTP. How do I get all this great stuff? 12. I do not have access to Usenet. How do I post and receive news? 13. Are there any Core War related WWW sites? 14. What is KotH? How do I enter? 15. Is it DAT 0, 0 or DAT #0, #0? How do I compare to core? 16. How does SLT (Skip if Less Than) work? 17. What is the difference between in-register and in-memory evaluation? 18. What is P-space? 19. What does "Missing ;assert .." in my message from KotH mean? 20. How should I format my code? 21. Are there any other Core War related resources I should know about? 22. What does (expression or term of your choice) mean? 23. Other questions? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. What is Core War? Core War is a game played by two or more programs (and vicariously by their authors) written in an assembly language called Redcode and run in a virtual computer called MARS (for Memory Array Redcode Simulator). The object of the game is to cause all processes of the opposing program to terminate, leaving your program in sole posession of the machine. There are Core War systems available for most computer platforms. Redcode has been standardised by the ICWS, and is therefore transportable between all standard Core War systems. The system in which the programs run is quite simple. The core (the memory of the simulated computer) is a continuous array of instructions, empty except for the competing programs. The core wraps around, so that after the last instruction comes the first one again. There are no absolute addresses in Core War. That is, the address 0 doesn't mean the first instruction in the memory, but the instruction that contains the address 0. The next instruction is 1, and the previous one obviously -1. However, all numbers are treated as positive, and are in the range 0 to CORESIZE-1 where CORESIZE is the amount of memory locations in the core - this means that -1 would be treated as CORESIZE-1 in any arithmetic operations, eg. 3218 + 7856 = (3218 + 7856) mod CORESIZE. Many people get confused by this, and it is particularly important when using the SLT instruction. Note that the source code of a program can still contain negative numbers, but if you start using instructions like DIV #-2, #5 it is important to know what effect they will have when executed. The basic unit of memory in Core War is one instruction. Each Redcode instruction contains three parts: * the opcode * the source address (a.k.a. the A-field) * the destination address (a.k.a. the B-field) The execution of the programs is equally simple. The MARS executes one instruction at a time, and then proceeds to the next one in the memory, unless the instruction explicitly tells it to jump to another address. If there is more than one program running, (as is usual) the programs execute alternately, one instruction at a time. The execution of each instruction takes the same time, one cycle, whether it is MOV, DIV or even DAT (which kills the process). Each program may have several processes running. These processes are stored in a task queue. When it is the program's turn to execute an instruction it dequeues a process and executes the corresponding instruction. Processes that are not killed during the execution of the instruction are put back into the task queue. Processes created by a SPL instruction are added to the task queue after the creating process is put back into the task queue. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2. Is it "Core War" or "Core Wars"? Both terms are used. Early references were to Core War. Later references seem to use Core Wars. I prefer "Core War" to refer to the game in general, "core wars" to refer to more than one specific battle. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3. Where can I find more information about Core War? Core War was first described in the Core War Guidelines of March, 1984 by D. G. Jones and A. K. Dewdney of the Department of Computer Science at The University of Western Ontario (Canada). Dewdney wrote several "Computer Recreations" articles in Scientific American which discussed Core War, starting with the May 1984 article. Those articles are contained in two anthologies: Library of Author Title Published ISBN Congress Call Number The Armchair Dewdney, Universe: An New York: W. QA76.6 .D517 A. K. Exploration of H. Freeman ©0-7167-1939-8 1988 Computer Worlds 1988 The Magic 0-7167-2125-2 Dewdney, Machine: A New York: W.(Hardcover), QA76.6 A. K. Handbook of H. Freeman ©0-7167-2144-9 .D5173 1990 Computer Sorcery 1990 (Paperback) A.K. Dewdney's articles are still the most readable introduction to Core War, even though the Redcode dialect described in there is no longer current. For those who are interested, Dewdney has a home page at http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4. Core War has changed since Dewdney's articles. Where do I get a copy of the current instruction set? A draft of the official standard (ICWS'88) is available as ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/standards/redcode-icws-88.Z. This document is formatted awkwardly and contains ambiguous statements. For a more approachable intro to Redcode, take a look at Mark Durham's tutorials, ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/tutorial.1.Z and ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/tutorial.2.Z. Steven Morrell has prepared a more practically oriented Redcode tutorial that discusses different warrior classes with lots of example code. This and various other tutorials can be found at http://www.koth.org/papers.html. Even though ICWS'88 is still the "official" standard, you will find that most people are playing by ICWS'94 draft rules and extensions. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5. What is ICWS'94? Which simulators support ICWS'94? There is an ongoing discussion about future enhancements to the Redcode language. A proposed new standard, dubbed ICWS'94, is currently being evaluated. A major change is the addition of "instruction modifiers" that allow instructions to modify A-field, B-field or both. Also new is a new addressing modes and unrestricted opcode and addressing mode combination ("no illegal instructions"). ICWS'94 is backwards compatible; i.e. ICWS'88 warriors will run correctly on an ICWS'94 system. Take a look at the ICWS'94 draft at ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/icws94.0202.Z for more information. There is a HTML version of this document available at http://www.koth.org/info/icws94.html. You can try out the new standard by submitting warriors to the '94 hills of the KotH servers. Two corewar systems currently support ICWS'94, pMARS (many platforms) and Redcoder (Mac), both available at ftp://www.koth.org/corewar. Note that Redcoder only supports a subset of ICWS'94. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6. What is the ICWS? About one year after Core War first appeared in Scientific American, the "International Core War Society" (ICWS) was established. Since that time, the ICWS has been responsible for the creation and maintenance of Core War standards and the running of Core War tournaments. There have been six annual tournaments and two standards (ICWS'86 and ICWS'88). The ICWS is no longer active. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 7. What is Core Warrior? Following in the tradition of the Core War News Letter, Push Off, and The 94 Warrior, Core Warrior is a newsletter about strategies and current standings in Core War. Started in October 1995, back issues of Core Warrior (and the other newsletters) are available at http://para.inria.fr/~doligez/corewar/. There is also a Core Warrior index page at http://www.kendalls.demon.co.uk/pak21/corewar/warrior.html which has a summary of the contents of each issue of Core Warrior. Many of the earlier issues contain useful information for beginners. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 8. Where are the Core War archives? Many documents such as the guidelines and the ICWS standards along with previous tournament Redcode entries and complete Core War systems are available via anonymous ftp from ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/corewar. Also, most of past rec.games.corewar postings (including Redcode source listings) are archived there. Jon Blow (blojo@csua.berkeley.edu) is the archive administrator. When uploading to /pub/corewar/incoming, ask Jon to move your upload to the appropriate directory and announce it on the net. This site is mirrored at: * http://www.koth.org/corewar/ * ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/ * ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/mirror The plain text version of this FAQ is automatically archived by news.answers (but this version is probably out-of-date). [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 9. Where can I find a Core War system for . . . ? Core War systems are available via anonymous FTP from www.koth.org in the corewar/systems directory. Currently, there are UNIX, IBM PC-compatible, Macintosh, and Amiga Core War systems available there. It is a good idea to check ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/incoming for program updates first. CAUTION! There are many, many Core War systems available which are NOT ICWS'88 (or even ICWS'86) compatible available at various archive sites other than www.koth.org. Generally, the older the program - the less likely it will be ICWS compatible. If you are looking for an ICWS'94 simulator, get pMARS, which is available for many platforms and can be downloaded from: * ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/corewar (original site) * ftp://www.koth.org/corewar (koth.org mirror) * ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/mirror (Planar mirror) * http://www.nc5.infi.net/~wtnewton/corewar/ (Terry Newton) * ftp://members.aol.com/ofechner/corewar (Fechter) Notes: * If you have trouble running pMARS with a graphical display under Win95 then check out http://www.koth.org/pmars.html which should have a pointer to the latest compilation of pMARS for this environment. * RPMs for the Alpha, PowerPC, Sparc and i386 can be found at ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/pmars-rpm/ Reviews of Core War systems would be greatly appreciated in the newsgroup and in the newsletter. Below is a not necessarily complete or up-to-date list of what's available at www.koth.org: MADgic41.lzh corewar for the Amiga, v4.1 MAD4041.lzh older version? MAD50B.lha corewar for the Amiga, beta version 5.0 Redcoder-21.hqx corewar for the Mac, supports ICWS'88 and '94 (without extensions) core-11.hqx corewar for the Mac core-wars-simulator.hqx same as core-11.hqx? corewar_unix_x11.tar.Z corewar for UNIX/X-windows, ICWS'86 but not ICWS'88 compatible koth31.tar.Z corewar for UNIX/X-windows. This program ran the former KotH server at intel.com koth.shar.Z older version kothpc.zip port of older version of KotH to the PC deluxe20c.tar.Z corewar for UNIX (broken X-windows or curses) and PC mars.tar.Z corewar for UNIX, likely not ICWS'88 compatible icons.zip corewar icons for MS-Windows macrored.zip a redcode macro-preprocessor (PC) c88v49.zip PC corewar, textmode display mars88.zip PC corewar, graphics mode display corwp302.zip PC corewar, textmode display, slowish mercury2.zip PC corewar written in assembly, fast! mtourn11.zip tournament scheduler for mercury (req. 4DOS) pmars08s.zip portable system, ICWS'88 and '94, runs on UNIX, PC, Mac, Amiga. C source archive pmars08s.tar.Z same as above pmars08.zip PC executables with graphics display, req 386+ macpmars02.sit.hqx pMARS executable for Mac (port of version 0.2) buggy, no display MacpMARS1.99a.cpt.hqx port of v0.8 for the Mac, with display and debugger MacpMARS1.0s.cpt.hqx C source (MPW, ThinkC) for Mac frontend pvms08.zip pMARS v0.8 for VMS build files/help (req. pmars08s.zip) ApMARS03.lha pMARS executable for Amiga (port of version 0.3.1) wincor11.zip MS-Windows system, shareware ($15) [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 10. Where can I find warrior code? To learn the game, it is a good idea to study previously posted warrior code. The FTP archives have code in the ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/redcode directory. A clearly organized on-line warrior collection is available at the Core War web sites (see below). [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 11. I do not have FTP. How do I get all this great stuff? There is an FTP email server at bitftp@pucc.princeton.edu. This address may no longer exist. I haven't tested it yet. Send email with a subject and body text of "help" (without the quotes) for more information on its usage. Note that many FTP email gateways are shutting down due to abuse. To get a current list of FTP email servers, look at the Accessing the Internet by E-mail FAQ posted to news.answers. If you don't have access to Usenet, you can retrieve this FAQ one of the following ways: * Send mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with the body containing "send usenet/news.answers/internet-services/access-via-email". * Send mail to mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk with the body containing "send lis-iis e-access-inet.txt". [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 12. I do not have access to Usenet. How do I post and receive news? To receive rec.games.corewar articles by email, join the COREWAR-L list run on the Koth.Org list processor. To join, send the message SUB COREWAR-L FirstName LastName to listproc@koth.org. You can send mail to corewar-l@koth.org to post even if you are not a member of the list. Responsible for the listserver is Scott J. Ellentuch (ttsg@ttsg.com). Servers that allow you to post (but not receive) articles are available. Refer to the Accessing the Internet by E-Mail FAQ for more information. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 13. Are there any Core War related WWW sites? You bet. Each of the two KotH sites sport a world-wide web server. Stormking's Core War page is http://www.koth.org; pizza's is http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~pizza/koth . Damien Doligez (a.k.a. Planar) has a web page that features convenient access to regular newsletters (Push Off, The '94 Warrior, Core Warrior) and a well organized library of warriors: http://para.inria.fr/~doligez/corewar/. Convenient for U.S. users, this site is also mirrored at koth.org. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 14. What is KotH? How do I enter? King Of The Hill (KotH) is an ongoing Core War tournament available to anyone with email. You enter by submitting via email a Redcode program (warrior) with special comment lines. You will receive a reply indicating how well your program did against the current top programs "on the hill". There are two styles of KotH tournaments, "classical" and "multi-warrior". The "classical" KotH is a one-on-one tournament, that is your warrior will play 100 battles against each of the 20 other programs currently on the Hill. You receive 3 points for each win and 1 point for each tie. (The existing programs do not replay each other, but their previous battles are recalled.) All scores are updated to reflect your battles and all 21 programs are ranked from high to low. If you are number 21 you are pushed off the Hill, if you are higher than 21 someone else is pushed off. In "multi-warrior" KotH, all warriors on the hill fight each other at the same time. Score calculation is a bit more complex than for the one-on-one tournament. Briefly, points are awarded based on how many warriors survive until the end of a round. A warrior that survives by itself gets more points than a warrior that survives together with other warriors. Points are calculated from the formula (W*W-1)/S, where W is the total number of warriors and S the number of surviving warriors. The pMARS documentation has more information on multi-warrior scoring. The idea for an email-based Core War server came from David Lee. The original KotH was developed and run by William Shubert at Intel starting in 1991, and discontinued after almost three years of service. Currently, KotHs based on Bill's UNIX scripts but offering a wider variety of hills are are running at two sites: koth@koth.org is maintained by Scott J. Ellentuch (tuc@ttsg.com) and pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu by Thomas H. Davies (sd@ecst.csuchico.edu). Up until May '95, the two sites provided overlapping services, i.e. the some of the hill types were offered by both "pizza" and "stormking". To conserve resources, the different hill types are now divided up among the sites. The way you submit warriors to both KotHs is pretty much the same. Therefore, the entry rules described below apply to both "pizza" and "stormking" unless otherwise noted. Entry Rules for King of the Hill Corewar * Write a corewar program. KotH is fully ICWS '88 compatible, EXCEPT that a comma (",") is required between two arguments. * Put a line starting with ";redcode" (or ";redcode-94", etc., see below) at the top of your program. This MUST be the first line. Anything before it will be lost. If you wish to receive mail on every new entrant, use ";redcode verbose". Otherwise you will only receive mail if a challenger makes it onto the hill. Use ";redcode quiet" if you wish to receive mail only when you get shoved off the hill. Additionally, adding ";name " and ";author " will be helpful in the performance reports. Do NOT have a line beginning with ";address" in your code; this will confuse the mail daemon and you won't get mail back. Using ";name" is mandatory on the Pizza hills. In addition, it would be nice if you have lines beginning with ";strategy" that describe the algorithm you use. There are currently seven separate hills you can select by starting your program with ;redcode-94, ;redcode-b, ;redcode-lp, ;redcode-x, ;redcode, ;redcode-94x or ;redcode-94m. The former four run at "pizza", the latter three at "stormking". More information on these hills is listed below. * Mail this file to koth@koth.org or pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu. "Pizza" requires a subject of "koth" (use the -s flag on most mailers). * Within a few minutes you should get mail back telling you whether your program assembled correctly or not. If it did assemble correctly, sit back and wait; if not, make the change required and re-submit. * In an hour or so you should get more mail telling you how your program performed against the current top 20 (or 10) programs. If no news arrives during that time, don't worry; entries are put in a queue and run through the tournament one at a time. A backlog may develop. Be patient. If your program makes it onto the hill, you will get mail every time a new program makes it onto the hill. If this is too much mail, you can use ";redcode[-??] quiet" when you first mail in your program; then you will only get mail when you make it on the top 25 list or when you are knocked off. Using ";redcode[-??] verbose" will give you even more mail; here you get mail every time a new challenger arrives, even if they don't make it onto the top 25 list. Often programmers want to try out slight variations in their programs. If you already have a program named "foo V1.0" on the hill, adding the line ";kill foo" to a new program will automatically bump foo 1.0 off the hill. Just ";kill" will remove all of your programs when you submit the new one. The server kills programs by assigning an impossibly low score; it may therefore take another successful challenge before a killed program is actually removed from the hill. Sample Entry ;redcode ;name Dwarf ;author A. K. Dewdney ;strategy Throw DAT bombs around memory, hitting every 4th memory cell. ;strategy This program was presented in the first Corewar article. bomb DAT #0 dwarf ADD #4, bomb MOV bomb, @bomb JMP dwarf END dwarf ; Programs start at the first line unless ; an "END start" pseudo-op appears to indicate ; the first logical instruction. Also, nothing ; after the END instruction will be assembled. Duration Max. Hill Name Hill Core Max. Before Entry Min. Rounds Instr. Size Size Processes Distance Fought Set Tie Length Pizza's ICWS '94 Draft Hill Extended (Accessed with 25 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 ";redcode-94") Draft Pizza's Beginner's Extended Hill (Accessed 25 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 with ";redcode-b") Draft Pizza's Experimental Extended (Small) Hill 25 800 800 8000 20 20 200 ICWS '94 (Accessed with Draft ";redcode-x") Pizza's Limited Process (LP) Hill Extended (Accessed with 25 8000 8 80000 200 200 200 ICWS '94 ";redcode-lp") Draft Stormking's ICWS '88 Standard Hill (Accessed with 20 8000 8000 80000 100 100 250 ICWS '88 ";redcode") Stormking's ICWS '94 No Pspace Hill (Accessed with 20 8000 8000 80000 100 100 250 ICWS '94 ";redcode-94nop") Stormking's ICWS '94 Experimental Extended (Big) Hill 20 55440 55440 500000 200 200 250 ICWS '94 (Accessed with Draft ";redcode-94x") Stormking's ICWS '94 Multi-Warrior Extended Hill (Accessed 10 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 with Draft ";redcode-94m") Note: Warriors on the beginner's hill are retired at age 100. If you just want to get a status report without actually challenging the hills, send email with ";status" as the message body (and don't forget "Subject: koth" for "pizza"). If you send mail to "pizza" with "Subject: koth help" you will receive instructions that may be more up to date than those contained in this document. At "stormking", a message body with ";help" will return brief instructions. If you submit code containing a ";test" line, your warrior will be assembled but not actually pitted against the warriors on the hill. At "pizza", you can use ";redcode[-??] test" to do a test challenge of the Hill without affecting the status of the Hill. These challenges can be used to see how well your warrior does against the current Hill warriors. All hills run portable MARS (pMARS) version 0.8, a platform-independent Core War system available at www.koth.org. The '94 and '94x hills allow five experimental opcodes and three experimental addressing modes currently not covered in the ICWS'94 draft document: * LDP - Load P-Space * STP - Store P-Space * SEQ - Skip if EQual (synonym for CMP) * SNE - Skip if Not Equal * NOP - (No OPeration) * * - indirect using A-field as pointer * { - predecrement indirect using A-field * } - postincrement indirect using A-field [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 15. Is it DAT 0, 0 or DAT #0, #0? How do I compare to core? Core is initialized to DAT 0, 0. This is an illegal instruction (in source code) under ICWS'88 rules and strictly compliant assemblers (such as KotH or pmars -8) will not let you have a DAT 0, 0 instruction in your source code - only DAT #0, #0. So this begs the question, how to compare something to see if it is empty core. The answer is, most likely the instruction before your first instruction and the instruction after your last instruction are both DAT 0, 0. You can use them, or any other likely unmodified instructions, for comparison. Note that under ICWS'94, DAT 0, 0 is a legal instruction. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 16. How does SLT (Skip if Less Than) work? SLT gives some people trouble because of the way modular arithmetic works. It is important to note that all negative numbers are converted to positive numbers before a battles begins. Example: -1 becomes M-1 where M is the memory size (core size). Once you realize that all numbers are treated as positive, it is clear what is meant by "less than". It should also be clear that no number is less than zero. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 17. What is the difference between in-register and in-memory evaluation? These terms refer to the way instruction operands are evaluated. The '88 Redcode standard ICWS'88 is unclear about whether a simulator should "buffer" the result of A-operand evaluation before the B-operand is evaluated. Simulators that do buffer are said to use in-register evaluation, those that don't, in-memory evaluation. ICWS'94 clears this confusion by mandating in-register evaluation. Instructions that execute differently under these two forms of evaluation are MOV, ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV and MOD where the effective address of the A-operand is modified by evaluation of the B-operand. This is best illustrated by an example: L1 mov L2, mov.i #0, impsize Bootstrapping Strategy of copying the active portion of the program away from the initial location, leaving a decoy behind and making the relocated program as small as possible. B-Scanners Scanners which only recognize non-zero B-fields. example add #10, scan scan jmz example, 10 c Measure of speed, equal to one location per cycle. Speed of light. CMP-Scanner A Scanner which uses a CMP instruction to look for opponents. example add step, scan scan cmp 10, 30 jmp attack jmp example step dat #20, #20 Colour Property of bombs making them visible to scanners, causing them to attack useless locations, thus slowing them down. example dat #100 Core-Clear Code that sequentially overwrites core with DAT instructions; usually the last part of a program. Decoys Bogus or unused instructions meant to slow down scanners. Typically, DATs with non-zero B-fields. Decrement Resistant Property of warriors making them functional (or at least partially functional) when overrun by a DJN-stream. DJN-Stream (also DJN-Train) Using a DJN command to rapidly decrement core locations. example ... ... djn example, <4000 Dwarf The prototypical small bomber. Gate-busting (also gate-crashing) technique to "interweave" a decrement-resistant imp-spiral (e.g. MOV 0, 2668) with a standard one to overrun imp-gates. Hybrids warriors that combine two or more of the basic strategies, either in sequence (e.g. stone->paper) or in parallel (e.g. imp/stone). Imp Program which only uses the MOV instruction. example mov 0, 1 or example mov 0, 2 mov 0, 2 Imp-Gate A location in core which is bombed or decremented continuously so that an Imp can not pass. Also used to describe the program-code which maintains the gate. example ... ... spl 0, mov.i #0,IMPSIZE Mirror see reflection. On-axis/off-axis On-axis scanners compare two locations M/2 apart, where M is the memory size. Off-axis scanners use some other separation. Optimal Constants (also optima-type constants) Bomb or scan increments chosen to cover core most effectively, i.e. leaving gaps of uniform size. Programs to calculate optimal constants and lists of optimal numbers are available at www.koth.org. Paper A Paper-like program is one which replicates itself many times. Part of the Scissors (beats) Paper (beats) Stone (beats Scissors) analogy. P-Warrior A warrior which uses the results of previous round(s) in order to determine which strategy it will use. Pit-Trapper (also Slaver, Vampire). A program which enslaves another. Usually accomplished by bombing with JMPs to a SPL 0 pit with an optional core-clear routine. Q^2 Scan A modern version of the Quick Scan where anything found is attacked almost immediately. Quick Scan 2c scan of a set group of core locations with bombing if anything is found. Both of the following codes snips scan 16 locations and check for a find. If anything is found, it is attacked, otherwise 16 more locations are scanned. Example: start s1 for 8 ;'88 scan cmp start+100*s1, start+100*s1+4000 ;check two locations mov #start+100*s1-found, found ;they differ so set pointer rof jmn attack, found ;if we have something, get it s2 for 8 cmp start+100*(s2+6), start+100*(s2+6)+4000 mov #start+100*(s2+6)-found, found rof found jmz moveme, #0 ;skip attack if qscan found nothing attack cmp @found, start-1 ;does found points to empty space? add #4000, found ;no, so point to correct location mov start-1, @found ;move a bomb moveme jmp 0, 0 In ICWS'94, the quick scan code is more compact because of the SNE opcode: start ;'94 scan s1 for 4 sne start+400*s1, start+400*s1+100 ;check two locations seq start+400*s1+200, start+400*s1+300 ;check two locations mov #start+400*s1-found, found ;they differ so set pointer rof jmn which, found ;if we have something, get it s2 for 4 sne start+400*(s2+4), start+400*(s2+4)+100 seq start+400*(s2+4)+200, start+400*(s2+4)+300 mov #start+400*(s2+4)-found-100, found rof found jmz moveme, #0 ;skip attack if qscan found nothing add #100, -1 ;increment pointer till we get the which jmn -1, @found ;right place mov start-1, @found ;move a bomb moveme jmp 0, 0 Reflection Copy of a program or program part, positioned to make the active program invisible to a CMP-scanner. Replicator Generic for Paper. A program which makes many copies of itself, each copy also making copies. Self-Splitting Strategy of amplifying the number of processes executing a piece of code. example spl 0 loop add #10, example mov example, @example jmp loop Scanner A program which searches through core for an opponent rather than bombing blindly. Scissors A program designed to beat replicators, usually a (B-field scanning) vampire. Part of the Paper-Scissors-Stone analogy. Self-Repair Ability of a program to fix it's own code after attack. Silk A replicator which splits off a process to each new copy before actually copying the code. This allows it to replicate extremely quickly. This technique is only possible under the '94 draft, because it requires post-increment indirect addressing. Example: spl 1 mov -1, 0 spl 1 ;generate 6 consecutive processes silk spl 3620, #0 ;split to new copy mov >-1, }-1 ;copy self to new location mov bomb, >2000 ;linear bombing mov bomb, }2042 ;A-indirect bombing for anti-vamp jmp silk, {silk ;reset source pointer, make new copy bomb dat >2667, >5334 ;anti-imp bomb Slaver see Pit-Trapper. Stealth Property of programs, or program parts, which are invisible to scanners, accomplished by using zero B-fields and reflections. Stone A Stone-like program designed to be a small bomber. Part of the Paper-Scissors-Stone analogy. Stun A type of bomb which makes the opponent multiply useless processes, thus slowing it down. Example is referred to as a SPL-JMP bomb. example spl 0 jmp -1 Two-Pass Core-Clear (also SPL/DAT Core-Clear) core clear that fills core first with SPL instructions, then with DATs. This is very effective in killing paper and certain imp-spiral variations. Vampire see Pit-Trapper. Vector Launch one of several means to start an imp-spiral running. As fast as Binary Launch, but requiring much less code. See also JMP/ADD Launch and Binary Launch. This example is one form of a Vector Launch: sz EQU 2667 spl 1 spl 1 jmp @vt, }0 vt dat #0, imp+0*sz ; start of vector table dat #0, imp+1*sz dat #0, imp+2*sz dat #0, imp+3*sz ; end of vector table imp mov.i #0, sz [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 23. Other questions? Just ask in the rec.games.corewar newsgroup or contact me. If you are shy, check out the Core War archives first to see if your question has been answered before. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Credits Additions, corrections, etc. to this document are solicited. Thanks in particular to the following people who have contributed major portions of this document: * Mark Durham (wrote the original version of the FAQ) * Paul Kline * Randy Graham * Stefan Strack (maintained a recent version of the FAQ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Copyright © 1999 Anton Marsden. Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium, provided this notice is preserved. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 6 16:03:10 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76D39J26445 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:03:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76D37n29769 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:03:08 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA22206; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:58:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:58:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108060400.AAA00714@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 08/06/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/06/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Fri Jul 27 06:41:47 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 test John Metcalf 21 10 2 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 20 82 3 Her Majesty P.Kline 17 101 4 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 16 21 5 8thTest Gino Oblena 15 13 6 fclear Brian Haskin 14 66 7 QuiVa John Metcalf 14 175 8 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 11 38 9 nikko dr.trunkenbold 2 1 10 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 0 7 11 Tzu Su (nop) Tascón 0 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 6 16:08:28 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76D8SJ28699 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:08:28 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76D8R527177 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:08:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA22355; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108060400.AAA00722@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 08/06/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/06/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sat Aug 4 13:03:12 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 19/ 49 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 147 189 2 34/ 21/ 45 Inky Ian Oversby 146 79 3 43/ 39/ 18 Behemot Michal Janeczek 146 423 4 33/ 24/ 43 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 141 362 5 32/ 23/ 45 Olivia Ben Ford 140 328 6 29/ 19/ 52 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 140 600 7 41/ 42/ 17 G2-b David Moore 139 386 8 23/ 8/ 68 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 138 300 9 34/ 31/ 35 Blacken Ian Oversby 137 847 10 40/ 43/ 17 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 137 557 11 40/ 43/ 17 Jinx Christian Schmidt 137 563 12 35/ 33/ 32 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 137 301 13 30/ 25/ 44 Uninvited John Metcalf 136 282 14 29/ 23/ 47 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 135 23 15 31/ 26/ 43 Revival Fire P.Kline 135 68 16 39/ 45/ 16 Phantasm 50 Robert Macrae 134 108 17 27/ 21/ 52 Vain Ian Oversby 134 65 18 41/ 50/ 10 Kenshin 2 Steve Gunnell 132 1 19 27/ 25/ 48 Qtest Christian Schmidt 129 122 20 22/ 16/ 62 Chism John Metcalf 127 3 21 7/ 89/ 4 Tiny Bill Michell 25 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 6 16:12:49 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76DCnJ20400 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:12:49 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76DCm527615 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:12:49 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA22430; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:07:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:07:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: CoreWars: low level of activity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of > sieben@imap1.asu.edu > Sent: 5 août, 2001 22:30 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: CoreWars: low level of activity > > > A hill with white warriors may generate some activity. It would certanly > be a very unstable hill. It may be necessary to add some new instructions > for hiding a few lines of code. WOW! He's alive ^_^ Anyway, yes alternative challenges like we've seen in the tounryes would breath some more life in the current instruction set, imho. I'd also suggest one with a rotating isntruction set. How weird could it be to have no access mov or jm*, fe? 8) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 6 16:15:01 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76DF1J29395 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:15:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76DF0527884 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:15:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA22395; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108060400.AAA00710@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 08/06/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/06/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Mon Jul 30 06:43:00 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 36/ 20/ 45 Freight Train David Moore 152 77 2 34/ 20/ 46 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 148 16 3 34/ 20/ 45 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 148 34 4 33/ 21/ 47 Guardian Ian Oversby 145 76 5 39/ 38/ 23 Stasis David Moore 141 184 6 38/ 35/ 27 PacMan David Moore 140 106 7 42/ 43/ 15 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 140 73 8 40/ 44/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 137 114 9 26/ 16/ 58 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 136 90 10 27/ 19/ 54 Jinglo John Metcalf 135 1 11 36/ 37/ 27 Tangle Trap David Moore 135 150 12 38/ 40/ 22 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 135 352 13 27/ 19/ 54 Test I Ian Oversby 134 133 14 28/ 22/ 50 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 134 32 15 39/ 45/ 16 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 133 402 16 27/ 20/ 53 Evoltmp 88 John K W 133 127 17 39/ 46/ 14 ig Wayne Sheppard 132 4 18 35/ 37/ 28 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 132 17 19 29/ 30/ 41 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 26 20 14/ 3/ 83 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 124 5 21 0/ 85/ 15 Spliter KINGHACKER 15 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 6 20:36:33 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76HaXJ26735 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 20:36:33 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76HaWn07424 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 20:36:32 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA24195; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 13:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 13:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9kmilp$qhd$1@news.netcologne.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: nc-zapfsa@netcologne.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Sascha Zapf To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CoreWars: low level of activity Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: sieben@imap1.asu.edu wrote: > A hill with white warriors may generate some activity. It would certanly > be a very unstable hill. It may be necessary to add some new instructions > for hiding a few lines of code. > > Nandor Nice idea, a hill like an infinite Tournament. If a Warrior climbs to No.1 he will be a "White Warrior". Another idea. What do you think about use the Read or Write Limits as published in the ICWS'94 Standart. A Hill with Write Limit 200 oder Read and Write Limit 500 sounds good for new Warriorstrategies. Write Limit 200. All Warrior with Q^3 Part have to start a Paper to kill the Opponent. Sascha -- Life is hard - Registered Linux User Nr.224899 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 6 21:37:02 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76Ib1J30968 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 21:37:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76Ib0515139 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 21:37:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA24603; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: spam.foxtaur.spam@spam.warren.kill.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Foxtaur To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: CPU-time for large tournaments? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: After a few years of other stuff, I've recently refocussed my attention back to CoreWar. Downloaded what DOS/Windows software I could find, and gathered somewhere on the order of 2,000-odd warriors... (Yes, Mr. Khuong, that was me that put that spike in koth.org's statistics. ) Now, since PShell goes "boom" if I point it to a directory holding even 400-odd warriors, that leaves me with a small quandry. All I want is to run a simple tournament, running each warrior against each other warrior - aroundish 2,000,000 combats. (Along the lines of Douglas Hofstadter's iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, I'm hoping to use the scores to determine each warrior's "population" in the next iteration, by weighting the next iteration's scores by the population, until some sort of steady state is reached... maybe then I'll start thinking about evolving some genetic algorhythms. ) Other than PShell's self-destructioning, my main limitation is processing power. I have available to me: my Celeron 400 desktop, and my school's half-dozen SETI@home boxen. So: How much processing time would this little experiment take? Can you recommend any DOS/Windows software besides pShell from pTools 1.1? (I'm not going to ask anybody if they're willing to donate CPU time... but feel free to volunteer anyway... :) ) Thank you for your time, -- Foxtaur The Rrangoon species is available at http://www.phantomcross.org/rrangoon/ From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 6 23:53:25 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76KrPJ32644 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 23:53:25 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f76KrNn24815 for ; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 23:53:24 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA25435; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <001201c11eb8$bb565ea0$2100a8c0@HomePC> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ff95@dial.pipex.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Robert Macrae" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Status: RO X-Status: > Now, since PShell goes "boom" if I point it to a directory holding even > 400-odd warriors, that leaves me with a small quandry. All I want is to > run a simple tournament, running each warrior against each other warrior - > aroundish 2,000,000 combats. Why not look at the results of the existing perpetual hills? It should save you at least 1,990,000 combats 8-) > (Along the lines of Douglas Hofstadter's > iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, I'm hoping to use the scores to determine > each warrior's "population" in the next iteration, by weighting the next > iteration's scores by the population, until some sort of steady state is > reached... Start with the itterated scores on Koenigstuhl. http://www.ociw.edu/~birk/COREWAR/koenigstuhl.html > So: How much processing time would this little experiment take? Can you > recommend any DOS/Windows software besides pShell from pTools 1.1? I suspect it would take months to do from scratch if you want to do a real n x n competition. OTOH if you are just interested in the top 25 of the table you can eliminate lots of no-hopers by testing them just against the a plausible top 25; you then face a 25 x n problem whih sounds likes days. I once did a study on the impact of adding He Scans Alone to a small population of good warriors, and I think population dynamics is an interesting and under-explored area. Knowing what is out there doesn't always mean you can write code to beat it, but if you don't even know... Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Aug 7 03:36:05 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f770a4J25265 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 03:36:05 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f770a4525511 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 03:36:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA26958; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 20:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 20:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <7ZFb7.17541$5c.939073@news20.bellglobal.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: spam.foxtaur.spam@spam.warren.kill.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Foxtaur To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Robert Macrae wrote: > Foxtaur wrote: >> Now, since PShell goes "boom" if I point it to a directory holding even >> 400-odd warriors, that leaves me with a small quandry. All I want is to >> run a simple tournament, running each warrior against each other >> warrior - aroundish 2,000,000 combats. > Why not look at the results of the existing perpetual hills? It should > save you at least 1,990,000 combats 8-) Well, that's one idea... assuming that I could figure out how to reconcile whatever formats they use, and identify which warriors are the same ones in each. Or am I worrying too much, and most of the hills use the same software? >> (Along the lines of Douglas Hofstadter's >> iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, I'm hoping to use the scores to determine >> each warrior's "population" in the next iteration, by weighting the next >> iteration's scores by the population, until some sort of steady state is >> reached... > > Start with the iterated scores on Koenigstuhl. > > http://www.ociw.edu/~birk/COREWAR/koenigstuhl.html Thank you for the URL; I'll examine it shortly. >> So: How much processing time would this little experiment take? Can you >> recommend any DOS/Windows software besides pShell from pTools 1.1? > > I suspect it would take months to do from scratch if you want to do a real > n x n competition. OTOH if you are just interested in the top 25 of the > table you can eliminate lots of no-hopers by testing them just against the > a plausible top 25; you then face a 25 x n problem whih sounds likes days. Well, that's one possible method, but I'm not too sure if it will give me all the info I'm hoping for. For example, a very quick study of an iterated Prisoner's Dilemma reveals the basic 'nasty' vs 'nice' strategies, and why the one works better than the other. (And not to forget, in addition to 'nice', 'reactive', 'forgiving', and 'understandable'.) For all I know, the warrior 'JMP $0' will turn out to be so-so in a one-shot hill, but the least-bad warrior for an iterated tournament - but I won't know until I have lots of data. Thank you for your time, -- Foxtaur The Rrangoon species is available at http://www.phantomcross.org/rrangoon/ From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Aug 7 05:36:53 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f772aqJ28175 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 05:36:52 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f772ap527387 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 05:36:52 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA27788; Mon, 6 Aug 2001 22:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 22:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B6F493E.33D5BC64@erols.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: dbhillis@erols.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Hillis To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Foxtaur wrote: > > After a few years of other stuff, I've recently refocussed my attention > back to CoreWar. Downloaded what DOS/Windows software I could find, and > gathered somewhere on the order of 2,000-odd warriors... .. snip > So: How much processing time would this little experiment take? Can you > recommend any DOS/Windows software besides pShell from pTools 1.1? > Sounds like a good idea. I did something similar a while back. I think it took a couple of weeks to fight 400 warriors against each other for 200 (400?) battles and build up a table of scores. Once you've got the table, everything gets really fast. I might still have a file with the scores in it - I'll look. Dave Hillis From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Aug 7 13:34:33 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f77AYWJ21728 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 13:34:33 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f77AYTn21379 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 13:34:29 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA01987; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 06:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 06:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9kodfc$c2n$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pak21@cam.ac.uk Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article <7ZFb7.17541$5c.939073@news20.bellglobal.com>, Foxtaur wrote: > > Well, that's one possible method, but I'm not too sure if it will give me >all the info I'm hoping for. For example, a very quick study of an >iterated Prisoner's Dilemma reveals the basic 'nasty' vs 'nice' >strategies, and why the one works better than the other. (And not to >forget, in addition to 'nice', 'reactive', 'forgiving', and >'understandable'.) For all I know, the warrior 'JMP $0' will turn out to >be so-so in a one-shot hill, but the least-bad warrior for an iterated >tournament - but I won't know until I have lots of data. Have you seen Ilmari Karonen's Mini Tournament #1 ( http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/corewar/imt1/ )? Phil -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Aug 7 14:59:01 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f77Bx0J30574 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:59:00 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f77Bwxn02905 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:58:59 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA02554; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 07:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 07:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: CPU-time for large tournaments? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Foxtaur > Sent: 6 août, 2001 20:34 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? > > > Robert Macrae wrote: > > Foxtaur wrote: > > >> Now, since PShell goes "boom" if I point it to a directory > holding even > >> 400-odd warriors, that leaves me with a small quandry. All I want is to > >> run a simple tournament, running each warrior against each other > >> warrior - aroundish 2,000,000 combats. > > > Why not look at the results of the existing perpetual hills? It should > > save you at least 1,990,000 combats 8-) > > Well, that's one idea... assuming that I could figure out how to > reconcile whatever formats they use, and identify which warriors are the > same ones in each. > Or am I worrying too much, and most of the hills use the same software? All the hills we talk about but one use the same standard, so you'll be fine. Anyway, those infinite hills don't get warriors submitted very often; the maintainers tend tojsut put every published warrior in the hill. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Aug 7 20:50:05 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f77Ho5J13452 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 20:50:05 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f77Ho4500180 for ; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 20:50:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA04600; Tue, 7 Aug 2001 13:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 13:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108071728.f77HSjZ28003@andromeda.ociw.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: birk@andromeda.ociw.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: birk@andromeda.ociw.edu To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: CPU-time for large tournaments? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > All the hills we talk about but one use the same standard, so you'll be > fine. Anyway, those infinite hills don't get warriors submitted very often; That's true :-(= Except for P.Kline's 'Puff', I have not received any published warrior for the 'Koenigstuhl' (http://www.ociw.edi/~birk/koenigstuhl.html) Christoph From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 10 06:34:49 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7A3YnJ23959 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 06:34:49 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7A3Yl525131 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 06:34:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA28010; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 23:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 23:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B734A9A.25346A9A@erols.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: dbhillis@erols.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Hillis To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: OK, I've got a 15 M file with a format that looks like ............. Rave 4.1 by Stefan Strack scores 540 Results: 14 177 9 WhiteSimple by John K. Wilkinson scores 182 Reclaiming by Magnus Paulsson scores 251 Results: 5 28 167 WhiteSimple by John K. Wilkinson scores 169 Recount by P.Kline scores 403 Results: 47 125 28 WhiteSimple by John K. Wilkinson scores 202 ............. I've got a 700 K file w/ the same information in a more cryptic format. (I should mention that the warriors came from Christoph's excellent 'Koenigstuhl' (http://www.ociw.edi/~birk/koenigstuhl.html) site.) And I have C code that finds the warriors in the directory, runs the battles, and plays an eternal game of KOTH among other things. I don't have it compiled for Windows. If anyone would like some of this stuff, contact me. My program for evolving warriors is at http://users.erols.dbhillis Dave Hillis dbhillis@erols.com From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 10 15:30:49 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7ACUmJ31362 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:30:48 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7ACUln18327 for ; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:30:47 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02773; Fri, 10 Aug 2001 08:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 08:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B73C6C5.2E3729F9@someoneelse.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: spam@someoneelse.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: HiEv To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hillis wrote: > [snip] > My program for evolving warriors is at http://users.erols.dbhillis Actually, it's at: http://users.erols.com/dbhillis/ From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 11 07:32:36 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7B4WaJ21351 for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 07:32:36 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7B4WZ529864 for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 07:32:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA08740; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 00:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: RBeesley@computer.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Ryan Beesley" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: CoreLife X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Where did this program come from, and is anyone doing any further development on it? KOTH.org is the only place I can find that references it. It was suggested that I try asking on the newsgroup. /Ryan From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 11 23:34:23 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7BKYNJ32576 for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:34:23 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7BKYLn07282 for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 23:34:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA16116; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: gender\@ouwww.ou.edu@odin.ttsg.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: gender\@ouwww.ou.edu@odin.ttsg.com To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Gender and the Internet X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I am a researcher at the University of Oklahoma, USA, conducting a study about gender and the Internet. The study consists of an online survey. To learn more about the study, go to the research project web site: http://infoserv.ou.edu/gender Cheers! -Elaine Wittenberg gender@ouwww.ou.edu From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Aug 12 04:07:11 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7C17BJ13178 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:07:11 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7C17An14363 for ; Sun, 12 Aug 2001 04:07:10 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA17873; Sat, 11 Aug 2001 21:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 21:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: CoreLife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Ryan > Beesley > Sent: 11 août, 2001 00:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: CoreLife > > > Where did this program come from, and is anyone doing any further > development on it? KOTH.org is the only place I can find that references > it. It was suggested that I try asking on the newsgroup. It's dead and old... Never quite understood the interest, but anyway 8) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 01-08-07 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 13 14:22:27 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7DBMQJ07961 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:22:26 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7DBMOn14295 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:22:24 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA02582; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 07:19:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 07:19:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108130400.AAA17905@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 08/13/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/13/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Wed Aug 8 22:17:23 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 20/ 47 Freight Train David Moore 146 77 2 32/ 20/ 48 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 143 16 3 31/ 22/ 46 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 141 34 4 30/ 22/ 48 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 76 5 37/ 39/ 24 Stasis David Moore 134 184 6 39/ 45/ 16 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 134 73 7 35/ 37/ 28 PacMan David Moore 132 106 8 27/ 22/ 51 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 131 32 9 24/ 17/ 59 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 131 90 10 38/ 46/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 130 114 11 25/ 20/ 55 Jinglo John Metcalf 129 1 12 24/ 20/ 56 Test I Ian Oversby 129 133 13 31/ 33/ 37 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 26 14 35/ 42/ 23 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 128 352 15 33/ 39/ 28 Tangle Trap David Moore 127 150 16 24/ 22/ 54 Evoltmp 88 John K W 126 127 17 36/ 47/ 17 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 126 402 18 14/ 3/ 83 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 125 5 19 36/ 48/ 16 ig Wayne Sheppard 125 4 20 31/ 39/ 29 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 123 17 21 30/ 41/ 28 Carrot Grater '88 Brant D. Thomsen 119 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 13 14:23:22 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7DBNMJ20201 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:23:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7DBNKn19423 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:23:21 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA02621; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 07:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 07:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108130400.AAA17917@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 08/13/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/13/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Aug 12 19:19:44 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 32/ 21/ 47 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 144 201 2 42/ 40/ 18 Behemot Michal Janeczek 143 435 3 31/ 20/ 48 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 142 612 4 33/ 25/ 42 Inky Ian Oversby 142 91 5 33/ 26/ 41 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 140 374 6 31/ 27/ 42 Uninvited John Metcalf 136 294 7 31/ 26/ 44 Olivia Ben Ford 136 340 8 34/ 33/ 33 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 135 313 9 33/ 33/ 33 Blacken Ian Oversby 133 859 10 22/ 10/ 68 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 133 312 11 30/ 26/ 44 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 133 35 12 30/ 28/ 42 Revival Fire P.Kline 132 80 13 38/ 46/ 16 Jinx Christian Schmidt 131 575 14 38/ 46/ 16 G2-b David Moore 130 398 15 28/ 28/ 44 Qtest Christian Schmidt 129 134 16 37/ 46/ 17 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 129 569 17 36/ 45/ 19 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 127 9 18 37/ 48/ 14 Hazy 5 Steve Gunnell 126 1 19 25/ 24/ 51 Vain Ian Oversby 126 77 20 38/ 52/ 9 Kenshin 18 Steve Gunnell 125 3 21 3/ 2/ 0 Hazy 3 Steve Gunnell 8 2 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 13 14:29:02 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7DBT1J21892 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:29:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7DBT0n22684 for ; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:29:00 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA02738; Mon, 13 Aug 2001 07:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 07:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108130400.AAA17913@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 08/13/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/13/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Aug 2 12:04:42 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 36/ 19/ 46 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 153 31 2 41/ 33/ 26 Black Moods Ian Oversby 148 95 3 42/ 40/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 145 59 4 28/ 15/ 57 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 142 39 5 37/ 34/ 29 Ogre Christian Schmidt 141 47 6 34/ 29/ 37 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 140 28 7 30/ 23/ 46 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 137 38 8 33/ 32/ 35 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 135 99 9 21/ 7/ 73 Denial David Moore 135 40 10 19/ 7/ 74 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 131 168 11 23/ 19/ 58 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 128 121 12 30/ 33/ 38 test CS 127 56 13 18/ 13/ 69 Kin John Metcalf 124 7 14 13/ 4/ 82 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 122 116 15 14/ 6/ 80 Black Box v1.1 JKW 122 62 16 33/ 44/ 24 Pagan John K W 121 153 17 30/ 42/ 28 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 117 5 18 17/ 20/ 63 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 115 120 19 18/ 25/ 57 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 111 26 20 15/ 21/ 64 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 108 1 21 1/ 65/ 34 Flak-1 UW(e) 37 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Aug 14 14:32:22 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7EBWLJ25353 for ; Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:32:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7EBWJ509465 for ; Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:32:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA13076; Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 07:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9lavo6$1k$1@wanadoo.fr> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: _asher_@caramail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "ash" <_asher_@caramail.com> To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: a visual C/C++ pMARS X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: hi, is somebaody working on such a project to make a pMERS station more "clickable" ::) i'm not really a win user but i intend to organise some battles with friends who enjoy the idea but they are really discouraged by the dos interface (don't even think of a *nix one !). Perhaps an URL where i should go to find such informations. thx From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 16 19:33:30 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7GGXTJ13113 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:33:29 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7GGXSn00918 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:33:28 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA05801; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: sliddicoat@home.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Newbie.....where do I start? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hey, I'm totally new to this. I discovered a program yesterday called Binary Armagedon which was based on the original core wars but has modified it a fair amount. I started to learn it, but then thought, "Why not go with the origianal?" So I have a Core Wars simulator for windows 95 now (cause that's what I'm on). But I don't know where to go to learn Red Code, or whatever code it is that I need to know. All I've ever programed in is PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of Core Wars. Thanks for your time. Sincerely, -=+ThE_sLuG+=- P.S. I used to do some minor hacking (the legal type) on a linux system, which is where I got the name from. I never got very good at it though. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 17 02:35:28 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7GNZSJ14595 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:35:28 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7GNZR527048 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:35:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA08700; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: foehg@localhost.localdomain Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: foehg@localhost.localdomain (Ransom Smith) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: > Hey, > I'm totally new to this. I discovered a program yesterday called Welcome, welcome. Join the group. > Binary Armagedon which was based on the original core wars but has modified > it a fair amount. I started to learn it, but then thought, "Why not go with > the origianal?" So I have a Core Wars simulator for windows 95 now (cause Sounds cool so far. > that's what I'm on). But I don't know where to go to learn Red Code, or > whatever code it is that I need to know. All I've ever programed in is > PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from > here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of > I have a load of links on my Win95 box, but my linux box here (which I surf with) has none. Off hand, I know you ought to go to everyone's favorite website, http://www.koth.org/ . When you get there, read some tutorials. The one that did the most for me was Ilmari Karonen's. (sp?) Happy hacking! -- [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] No, I don't Yahoo. --**([{ LIFE IS FAIR. --**-- LIVE WITH IT. }])**-- From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 17 06:24:02 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7H3O1J26595 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 06:24:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7H3Nxn17899 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 06:23:59 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA10380; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108162324.TAA12289@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: liporati@brfree.com.br Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Leonardo H. Liporati" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: At 16/08/01 12:31:00, you wrote: [...snip...] >PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from >here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of >Core Wars. [...snip...] Hi, start browsing at www.koth.org. The INFO section contains some tutorials and beginner's guides. Try also the LINKS section and The Core War Imp Ring. Enjoy! Leonardo. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 17 06:36:44 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7H3aiJ00472 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 06:36:44 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7H3ah502420 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 06:36:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA10651; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 23:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <88%e7.16001$7h.3861292@news2.rdc1.bc.home.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: sliddicoat@home.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Thanksm I've been there already. That's where I got the Core Simulator. But, that's all I got while I was there. I'll go back and check out the tutorials and such. Thanks. I'd be very greatful to get a look at your links as well. Thanks again. Sincerely, -=+ThE_sLuG+=- "Ransom Smith" wrote in message news:slrn9nok46.fc.foehg@localhost.localdomain... > -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: > > Hey, > > I'm totally new to this. I discovered a program yesterday called > > Welcome, welcome. Join the group. > > > Binary Armagedon which was based on the original core wars but has modified > > it a fair amount. I started to learn it, but then thought, "Why not go with > > the origianal?" So I have a Core Wars simulator for windows 95 now (cause > > Sounds cool so far. > > > that's what I'm on). But I don't know where to go to learn Red Code, or > > whatever code it is that I need to know. All I've ever programed in is > > PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from > > here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of > > > > I have a load of links on my Win95 box, but my linux box here (which I surf > with) has none. Off hand, I know you ought to go to everyone's favorite > website, http://www.koth.org/ . > > When you get there, read some tutorials. The one that did the most for me > was Ilmari Karonen's. (sp?) > > Happy hacking! > > -- > [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] > [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] > No, I don't Yahoo. --**([{ LIFE IS FAIR. --**-- LIVE WITH IT. }])**-- From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 17 17:31:03 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7HEV3J32096 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:31:03 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7HEV1n02510 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:31:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA15971; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: foehg@localhost.localdomain Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: foehg@localhost.localdomain (Ransom Smith) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: RS wrote: > under windows pmarsv fails with corewiew mode > under ms dos it fails too : no dpmi... > > any idea? > RS For dos, get a copy somewhere of cwsdpmi.exe. They're all over the place, especially in djgpp mirrors. -- [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] No, I don't Yahoo. --**([{ LIFE IS FAIR. --**-- LIVE WITH IT. }])**-- From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 17 17:33:20 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7HEXKJ03164 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:33:20 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7HEXIn00716 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:33:18 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA15997; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: fmccross@localhost.localdomain Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: fmccross@localhost.localdomain (Fraser McCrossan) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:01:57 GMT, Ransom Smith wrote: >RS wrote: >> under windows pmarsv fails with corewiew mode >> under ms dos it fails too : no dpmi... >> >> any idea? >> RS > >For dos, get a copy somewhere of cwsdpmi.exe. They're all over the place, >especially in djgpp mirrors. And for Linux, try corewars.sourceforge.net. This is a separate implementation from MARS, and also supports a simpler "proprietary" language called Corewars Language. It has a lovely user interface, though, as well as a command-line version built from the same code. I was in contact with one of the authors recently, since I'm hoping to port the main parts of it to PalmOS, and he tells me that the Redcode parser handles most but not all of the warriors out there, since a few features have been omitted. I'm not sure what those features are, however since the code is so well written, clean and easy to understand, I plan to use it anyway. I haven't taken a look at the MARS code for comparison though; any comments on it would be welcomed. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 17 18:47:02 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7HFl2J01358 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:47:02 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7HFl1525688 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:47:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA16698; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B7D36DC.6129B232@web.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: benedikt.eger@web.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Benedikt Eger To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [de] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i686) Status: RO X-Status: Hm, what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar and immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would be whether or not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn Corewar. Of course a lot of people _know_ Corewar. But how many are still playing? I am not sure if I'd want to waste my time learning a such complex game if there were only a few players - who would want to learn chess if there were only ten players or so in the world left playing the game. With the hope to produce a lot of traffic in rgc, Benedikt -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: > > Hey, > I'm totally new to this. I discovered a program yesterday called > Binary Armagedon which was based on the original core wars but has modified > it a fair amount. I started to learn it, but then thought, "Why not go with > the origianal?" So I have a Core Wars simulator for windows 95 now (cause > that's what I'm on). But I don't know where to go to learn Red Code, or > whatever code it is that I need to know. All I've ever programed in is > PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from > here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of > Core Wars. > Thanks for your time. > > Sincerely, > -=+ThE_sLuG+=- > > P.S. I used to do some minor hacking (the legal type) on a linux system, > which is where I got the name from. I never got very good at it though. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 17 23:32:08 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7HKW8J30763 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:32:08 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7HKW6n28458 for ; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:32:06 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA18688; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: sliddicoat@home.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Ha ha, that's one thing I've learned already. Its not "us" that play the game, its the programs themselves. If I learn, I can write programs to play against each other. Otherwise, I'd go with your plan and just not learn it. :-) "Benedikt Eger" wrote in message news:3B7D36DC.6129B232@web.de... > Hm, > what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar and > immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would be whether or > not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn Corewar. Of course a lot of > people _know_ Corewar. But how many are still playing? I am not sure if I'd want > to waste my time learning a such complex game if there were only a few players - > who would want to learn chess if there were only ten players or so in the world > left playing the game. > > With the hope to produce a lot of traffic in rgc, > Benedikt > > -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: > > > > Hey, > > I'm totally new to this. I discovered a program yesterday called > > Binary Armagedon which was based on the original core wars but has modified > > it a fair amount. I started to learn it, but then thought, "Why not go with > > the origianal?" So I have a Core Wars simulator for windows 95 now (cause > > that's what I'm on). But I don't know where to go to learn Red Code, or > > whatever code it is that I need to know. All I've ever programed in is > > PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from > > here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of > > Core Wars. > > Thanks for your time. > > > > Sincerely, > > -=+ThE_sLuG+=- > > > > P.S. I used to do some minor hacking (the legal type) on a linux system, > > which is where I got the name from. I never got very good at it though. From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 18 03:31:17 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7I0VHJ13869 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:31:17 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7I0VG509445 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 03:31:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA20372; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: marcj@zwallet.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: marcj@zwallet.com To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: This is a test X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: test -- SUBMIT YOUR AD HERE! http://www.adtrackclassifieds.com/index.cfm?u=3690361 From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 18 05:57:32 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7I2vWJ09430 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 05:57:32 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7I2vUn22976 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 05:57:30 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA21440; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Newbie.....where do I start? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of > Benedikt Eger > Sent: 17 août, 2001 11:45 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? > > > Hm, > what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar and > immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would > be whether or > not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn Corewar. Of > course a lot of > people _know_ Corewar. But how many are still playing? I am not > sure if I'd want > to waste my time learning a such complex game if there were only > a few players - > who would want to learn chess if there were only ten players or > so in the world > left playing the game. I think that since 1993, the traffic has decreased a LOT, probably because the format is growing stale 8( (i can remember the days around '98 where i'd get like 10 emails from rgcw). SO, i think we should try to create a new standard, with maybe just a few more operands(one or two would be enough!). Anyway,i ahven't submitted a warrior in ages, because i can't find time to actually amke them work as well as i want them to work. However, there should be several of us lurking around, ready to help you if you need help. I guess i could continue my newbie help post soon(the said psot is 2 months old 8) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 18 05:58:03 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7I2w3J18831 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 05:58:03 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7I2w2510970 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 05:58:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA21469; Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Fraser > McCrossan > Sent: 17 août, 2001 10:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) > > > On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:01:57 GMT, Ransom Smith wrote: > >RS wrote: > >> under windows pmarsv fails with corewiew mode > >> under ms dos it fails too : no dpmi... > >> > >> any idea? > >> RS > > > >For dos, get a copy somewhere of cwsdpmi.exe. They're all over the place, > >especially in djgpp mirrors. > > And for Linux, try corewars.sourceforge.net. This is a separate > implementation from MARS, and also supports a simpler "proprietary" > language called Corewars Language. It has a lovely user interface, > though, as well as a command-line version built from the same code. If that's the other implementation i think it is, i wouldn't try it... It's not compatible with ICWS '94(so it'll be useless to test before sending to koth), and the scoring system is really prone to abuse. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 18 21:35:15 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7IIZEJ22835 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 21:35:15 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7IIZCn31388 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 21:35:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA29062; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: sliddicoat@home.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > SO, i think we should try to create a new standard, with maybe just a few > more operands(one or two would be enough!). > Great idea! Easily accomplished with some teamwork! > I guess i could continue my newbie help post soon(the said psot is 2 months > old 8) > Please do!!! > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Aug 19 18:32:48 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7JFWlJ11529 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:32:47 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7JFWk509651 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:32:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA07439; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: bjoern.guenzel@bch-fms.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Bjoern Guenzel" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CoreLife X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 01-08-07 Do you have the same sig when you send warriors to pizza? ;-) Bjoern From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Aug 19 18:32:48 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7JFWlJ32113 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:32:47 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7JFWk509652 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 18:32:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA07459; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 11:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: bjoern.guenzel@bch-fms.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Bjoern Guenzel" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Code Red X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I just read that now there are discussion such as http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/warhol.html as to how quickly a worm like Code Red could infect the internet. Apparently Code Red's spreading was hampered, because all new copies started with the same seed for the random number generator to generate new IP addresses to attack. Other reasons for slowing down was wasting time with already infected hosts. It just reminded me of the problem of finding good constants for papers. I thought this could be amusing for Corewar players ;-) Bjoern From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Aug 19 20:32:48 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7JHWmJ15621 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:32:48 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7JHWkn23645 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:32:47 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA08375; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 13:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 13:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: CoreLife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Bjoern > Guenzel > Sent: 19 août, 2001 11:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: CoreLife > > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 01-08-07 > > Do you have the same sig when you send warriors to pizza? ;-) ROTFLOL!!! Yes, but i haven't submitted anything in years(really a full year, i think). And, in case you'Re wondering hwo come i don't have the sig now, it's bc i tried out NAV 2k1, but didn't like it, and no time to reinstall AVG 8) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Aug 19 20:32:54 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7JHWsJ13061 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:32:54 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7JHWqn17223 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 20:32:52 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA08398; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 13:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 13:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Code Red MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Bjoern > Guenzel > Sent: 19 août, 2001 11:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Code Red > > > I just read that now there are discussion such as > http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/warhol.html as to how quickly a worm > like Code Red could infect the internet. > > Apparently Code Red's spreading was hampered, because all new > copies started > with the same seed for the random number generator to generate new IP > addresses to attack. > > Other reasons for slowing down was wasting time with already > infected hosts. > > It just reminded me of the problem of finding good constants for papers. I > thought this could be amusing for Corewar players ;-) LOL! Actually, only the first version ahd a bad seed for the number generator. The second version was much better, breeding much more effciently 8) And, well, there could have been a second onslaught, thanks to server with their clock's time not set correctly(fe, if it was 1 hour late); that would have been enough for the worm to continue spreading... LOL (god, i DO hope that no FBI agent is lurking in ehre, thinking we're all virus afficionado ^_^) BTW, do you think we should try to build new operands, to revive the game? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Aug 19 22:33:22 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7JJXMJ13014 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:33:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7JJXL515083 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:33:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA09235; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 15:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 15:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B80077A.57674D2@erols.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: dbhillis@erols.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Hillis To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Code Red Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Bjoern Guenzel wrote: > > I just read that now there are discussion such as > http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/warhol.html as to how quickly a worm > like Code Red could infect the internet. > > Apparently Code Red's spreading was hampered, because all new copies started > with the same seed for the random number generator to generate new IP > addresses to attack. > > Other reasons for slowing down was wasting time with already infected hosts. > > It just reminded me of the problem of finding good constants for papers. I > thought this could be amusing for Corewar players ;-) > > Bjoern Yes. Especially since the hills at KOTH and PIZZA have that same security flaw `. Dave Hillis From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 20 07:34:47 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7K4YkJ19281 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:34:46 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7K4Yk523632 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:34:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA12517; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:32:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:32:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9lq0h5$1g48$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mooredav@msu.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: David Matthew Moore To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: PowerPC/MacOS X pMARS binaries X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I've compiled pMARS v0.8.6 on my iBook running X windows. If you're interested in the PowerPC/MacOS X binaries for pmars, pmarsv (visual display), or mts (tournament scheduler), then they are temporarily available here: http://www.msu.edu/~mooredav/cw/ Don't link to that directory, but copy the contents. The visual mars requires the X window system. If you don't have one, then get the latest version from http://www.xfree86.org In addition to their list of required files, I suggest installing "Xquartz.tgz" so that you don't have to boot in console mode. -- David Moore mooredav@msu.edu From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 20 14:48:06 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7KBm5J20821 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:48:05 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7KBm2n32131 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:48:03 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA16373; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108200400.AAA26357@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 08/20/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/20/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sat Aug 11 14:20:17 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 26 83 2 QuiVa John Metcalf 26 176 3 test John Metcalf 23 11 4 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 22 22 5 fclear Brian Haskin 22 67 6 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 20 39 7 Her Majesty P.Kline 12 102 8 8thTest Gino Oblena 12 14 9 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 10 8 10 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 9 1 11 nikko dr.trunkenbold 0 2 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 20 14:48:14 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7KBmEJ32474 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:48:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7KBmC504796 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:48:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA16445; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108200400.AAA26361@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 08/20/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/20/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Aug 19 14:07:52 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 36/ 19/ 46 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 153 31 2 40/ 33/ 26 Black Moods Ian Oversby 147 95 3 43/ 40/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 145 59 4 29/ 15/ 56 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 142 39 5 37/ 34/ 29 Ogre Christian Schmidt 141 47 6 34/ 29/ 37 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 139 28 7 30/ 23/ 47 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 137 38 8 21/ 7/ 73 Denial David Moore 135 40 9 33/ 32/ 35 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 134 99 10 19/ 7/ 74 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 131 168 11 30/ 33/ 38 test CS 127 56 12 22/ 19/ 60 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 125 121 13 18/ 13/ 69 Kin John Metcalf 124 7 14 14/ 4/ 82 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 123 116 15 14/ 6/ 80 Black Box v1.1 JKW 122 62 16 32/ 44/ 24 Pagan John K W 121 153 17 30/ 42/ 28 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 117 5 18 16/ 20/ 64 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 113 120 19 18/ 25/ 57 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 110 26 20 14/ 21/ 64 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 108 1 21 3/ 62/ 35 UfIh anonymous ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:48:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7KBmLn30275 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:48:21 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA16397; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:46:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:46:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108200400.AAA26365@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 08/20/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/20/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Aug 19 05:05:33 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 30/ 20/ 50 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 140 213 2 40/ 41/ 19 Behemot Michal Janeczek 140 447 3 40/ 41/ 18 Hazy Lazy ... Steve Gunnell 140 4 4 29/ 19/ 52 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 139 624 5 31/ 23/ 46 Inky Ian Oversby 138 103 6 31/ 25/ 44 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 136 386 7 30/ 25/ 45 Olivia Ben Ford 136 352 8 30/ 26/ 44 Revival Fire P.Kline 134 92 9 33/ 32/ 36 Blacken Ian Oversby 133 871 10 29/ 26/ 45 Uninvited John Metcalf 132 306 11 37/ 44/ 18 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 130 581 12 27/ 25/ 48 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 130 47 13 20/ 10/ 70 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 129 324 14 32/ 34/ 34 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 129 325 15 37/ 46/ 17 G2-b David Moore 129 410 16 37/ 46/ 18 Jinx Christian Schmidt 128 587 17 25/ 22/ 53 Vain Ian Oversby 128 89 18 35/ 44/ 20 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 126 21 19 38/ 52/ 10 Kenshin 19 Steve Gunnell 125 1 20 25/ 27/ 48 Qtest Christian Schmidt 124 146 21 18/ 22/ 60 Mr Sheen Test B 1 Steve Gunnell 114 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 20 14:48:29 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7KBmSJ00185 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:48:28 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7KBmS504817 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:48:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA16421; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108200400.AAA26353@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 08/20/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/20/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Wed Aug 8 22:17:23 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 20/ 47 Freight Train David Moore 146 77 2 32/ 20/ 48 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 143 16 3 31/ 22/ 46 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 141 34 4 30/ 22/ 48 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 76 5 37/ 39/ 24 Stasis David Moore 134 184 6 39/ 45/ 16 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 134 73 7 35/ 37/ 28 PacMan David Moore 132 106 8 27/ 22/ 51 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 131 32 9 24/ 17/ 59 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 131 90 10 38/ 46/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 130 114 11 25/ 20/ 55 Jinglo John Metcalf 129 1 12 24/ 20/ 56 Test I Ian Oversby 129 133 13 31/ 33/ 37 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 26 14 35/ 42/ 23 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 128 352 15 33/ 39/ 28 Tangle Trap David Moore 127 150 16 24/ 22/ 54 Evoltmp 88 John K W 126 127 17 36/ 47/ 17 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 126 402 18 14/ 3/ 83 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 125 5 19 36/ 48/ 16 ig Wayne Sheppard 125 4 20 31/ 39/ 29 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 123 17 21 30/ 41/ 28 Carrot Grater '88 Brant D. Thomsen 119 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 20 18:37:05 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7KFb4J07481 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:37:04 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7KFb4d07550 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:37:04 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA17938; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9lr6l8$3dd$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pak21@cam.ac.uk Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: PowerPC/MacOS X pMARS binaries X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article <9lq0h5$1g48$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, David Matthew Moore wrote: >I've compiled pMARS v0.8.6 on my iBook running X windows. Is there a reason you did 0.8.6 and not 0.9.2? Phil (not criticising, just curious :-) ) -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Aug 21 03:31:41 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7L0VfJ14257 for ; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:31:41 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7L0Ved25152 for ; Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:31:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA21453; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9ls7eq$6j2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mooredav@msu.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: David Matthew Moore To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: PowerPC/MacOS X pMARS binaries X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Philip Kendall wrote: > Is there a reason you did 0.8.6 and not 0.9.2? because I didn't check the development site for the latest version. The PowerPC/Darwin executables for pmars and pmarsv 0.9.2 are now also available at: http://www.msu.edu/~mooredav/cw/ -- David Moore mooredav@msu.edu From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Aug 22 22:21:55 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7MJLtJ17530 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:21:55 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7MJLsd29270 for ; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:21:54 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA10816; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B83EDC3.AC4557D5@web.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: benedikt.eger@web.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Benedikt Eger To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [de] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i686) Status: RO X-Status: Hey, I suppose not everybody read my reply to -=+ThE_sLuG+=-'s post, so I am posting it again. It was meant to support a discussion about how popular Corewar still is. So please post your comments and please don't flame me for posting the stuff again. I am just fighting for Corewar to stay alive. Well, here it is again: >Hm, >what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar and >immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would be whether or >not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn Corewar. Of course a lot of >people _know_ Corewar. But how many are still playing? I am not sure if I'd want >to waste my time learning a such complex game if there were only a few players - >who would want to learn chess if there were only ten players or so in the world >left playing the game. > > With the hope to produce a lot of traffic in rgc, > Benedikt again, Benedikt From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 23 00:35:32 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7MLZWJ23502 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:35:32 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7MLZVd04538 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:35:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA12020; Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: fmccross@localhost.localdomain Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: fmccross@localhost.localdomain (Fraser McCrossan) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On 22 Aug 2001 15:21:04 -0400, Benedikt Eger wrote: >>what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar >>and immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would >>be whether or not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn >>Corewar. Of course a lot of people _know_ Corewar. But how many are >>still playing? I am not sure if I'd want to waste my time learning a >>such complex game if there were only a few players - who would want >>to learn chess if there were only ten players or so in the world >>left playing the game. Someone else commented that producing a new standard might revive corewar, perhaps by adding a few new instructions. I wonder if this wouldn't be counter-productive. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with the following argument (flame me if you must) but here it is anyway: Corewar has evolved in stages from a relatively simple instruction set to a very complex one, one that is more complex than many real CPUs. Also, it has many abstract features that real CPUs lack. In part, this makes coding for it easier, but it also makes the language more complex, raising the bar for those learning it. Could it be that the learning curve required is now so steep that new players appreciate the concept, but so much effort is required to reach a competent level that they don't bother? Those people that already know the game don't mind a few new instructions, but for beginners, it just makes a bad situation worse. Also, one of the great things about Corewar is that by playing the game, one can learn many of the concepts needed for real assembly-language progamming, making it a learning experience. However in modern times, very little code is written in assembly, especially on complex CPUs such as Pentiums - and Redcode's complexity is comparable to such a processor. Most serious assembly work is done on microcontrollers, where speed, small code size and efficiency are the order of the day, much like Corewar warriors. Such small CPUs lack many of the advanced features of Redcode, and moving from Redcode to, say, PIC programming is a great shock compared to moving to x86 programming. This means that Corewar has lost one of its great advantages. I argue that to revive Corewar, we must do two things: make it easier to learn, and make it more like a simple real-world CPU (abstracted a little for simplicity, of course), or to put it another way, make learning Redcode a good introduction to assembly programming, in the same way that learning Pascal is a good stepping stone to basic programming concepts, before moving on to more practical languages such as C (no language flames please, this is just an example). To do this, we need to: a) reduce the number of instructions b) remove many of the advanced addressing modes c) (perhaps) remove the A and B memory cell abstraction I envision a sort of subset of current Redcode 94, where code written in the new, reduced standard is upwardly compatible... it can become a sort of "stepping stone" to full Redcode. Comments? From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 23 11:32:39 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7N8WdJ12677 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:32:39 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7N8Wcd00368 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:32:38 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA17947; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 04:30:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 04:30:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: sliddicoat@home.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: pMARS-Colors and Numbers? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Can anyone explain the colors and numbers used in the graphical display of pMARS? How do I tell which warrior is which? There are also other symbols such as little squares and dashes. If anyone could explain this to me, I would be very greatful. -=+ThE_sLuG+=- From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 23 16:33:22 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7NDXMJ31341 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:33:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7NDXLd00583 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:33:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA19664; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <998567998.732@itz.pp.sci.fi> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: iltzu@sci.invalid Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ilmari Karonen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , Fraser McCrossan wrote: > >This means that Corewar has lost one of its great advantages. I argue >that to revive Corewar, we must do two things: make it easier to >learn, and make it more like a simple real-world CPU (abstracted a >little for simplicity, of course), or to put it another way, make >learning Redcode a good introduction to assembly programming, in the >same way that learning Pascal is a good stepping stone to basic >programming concepts, before moving on to more practical languages >such as C (no language flames please, this is just an example). To do >this, we need to: You've got a good argument there. I'd also like to add that it doesn't matter how simple or newbie-friendly to instruction set is, if there is no newbie-friendly simulator around. These days, that'd mean a point-and-click interface, with a GUI debugger and preferably a builtin editor and help system. pMARS may be a good simulator, but it's worthless as an IDE. jMARS might be better, but it still needs work. I wonder how "the other project" on sourceforge is doing these days. It also occurs to me that the simulator ought to be net-aware. It should be able to access warrior archives on the internet, and probably also to contact hills and submit warriors. That, of course, requires coming up with a standard interface, but I think a thin layer over HTTP should be more than sufficient, and not hard to implement. >a) reduce the number of instructions >b) remove many of the advanced addressing modes >c) (perhaps) remove the A and B memory cell abstraction We could call it RISCW, perhaps? Let's see.. If this is supposed to be easy to learn, we probably don't want to allow opcode arithmetic. And we probably do want instructions to have separate source and target fields, too, since anything else is a pain to code. Which pretty much means modifiers have to stay, unless we want to go the redcode'88 route and make them implicit to the opcode. I wouldn't. But all the indirection addressing modes can go, if we want. That'd leave two modes for each field, and from four to eight modifiers. (I've always thought it'd make sense to treat the redcode'94 modifiers as a "field mask" of three bits, which would imply adding .IX to make it eight. Or we could remove .X, .AB and .BA to make it four.) If we keep the number of opcodes down, we could aim for one-byte internal encoding. >I envision a sort of subset of current Redcode 94, where code written >in the new, reduced standard is upwardly compatible... it can become >a sort of "stepping stone" to full Redcode. I'm not sure if that's a good approach, actually. We should definitely keep the parts of redcode'94 that are good and suitable for the goal of the new system, but once we sacrifice downward compatibility, we might as well give up compatibility entirely. -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ "... programs that work in spite of themselves are not what should be guiding language design." -- Sean M. Burke on the perl5-porters list From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 23 17:33:36 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7NEXZJ00599 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:33:35 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7NEXXn26885 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:33:33 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA20089; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: fmccross@localhost.localdomain Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: fmccross@localhost.localdomain (Fraser McCrossan) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: >These days, that'd mean a point-and-click interface, with a GUI debugger >and preferably a builtin editor and help system. pMARS may be a good >simulator, but it's worthless as an IDE. jMARS might be better, but it >still needs work. I wonder how "the other project" on sourceforge is >doing these days. Well, "the other project" still announces new releases on Freshmeat fairly regularly, for what that's worth. I guess the best approach to this is to divorce the actual simulator code from the GUI code as much as possible, and write it as cleanly as possible, with as little dependance on a particular build environment and OS as is practical. This would then allow developers on each platform to code around the same simulator. Standard C library calls would be abstracted (for example, the simulator would call mars_malloc, and it would be the responsibility of the UI programmer to provide appropriate calls for their environment). This might sound like overkill, but the environment of particular interest to me is PalmOS, where memory management is done a little differently, and I'd assume similar was true of Pocket PC. The simulator should do the parsing and execution of code, but nothing else; it shouldn't try to read and write files, but should be passed code via a memory buffer, and provide access to another buffer containing the core. Perhaps it would also use callbacks to alert the GUI of certain conditions - those are details. > >It also occurs to me that the simulator ought to be net-aware. It >should be able to access warrior archives on the internet, and probably >also to contact hills and submit warriors. That, of course, requires >coming up with a standard interface, but I think a thin layer over HTTP >should be more than sufficient, and not hard to implement. > Sounds like a good idea, but again this should probably be divorced from the simulator itself, and be relegated to the GUI. In the case of something like PalmOS, it may not make much sense to implement it at all. >We could call it RISCW, perhaps? I like that :-) Especially since we'll have one instruction per cycle... >>Let's see.. If this is supposed to be easy to learn, we probably don't >want to allow opcode arithmetic. And we probably do want instructions >to have separate source and target fields, too, since anything else is a >pain to code. This also makes self-modifying code easier, since no bit-wrangling is necessary in code to specifically change just one field. Although if this is supposed to be a good code-learning experience, perhaps encouraging self-modifying code isn't a great idea... :-) >Which pretty much means modifiers have to stay, unless we want to go the >redcode'88 route and make them implicit to the opcode. I wouldn't. But >all the indirection addressing modes can go, if we want. > My preference would be to keep immediate, direct and simple indirect, and dump the rest. All the others can be faked using these three. >That'd leave two modes for each field, and from four to eight modifiers. >(I've always thought it'd make sense to treat the redcode'94 modifiers >as a "field mask" of three bits, which would imply adding .IX to make it >eight. Or we could remove .X, .AB and .BA to make it four.) If we keep >the number of opcodes down, we could aim for one-byte internal encoding. > One byte for each of the opcode, A and B, I take it? That would prevent branches from reaching all parts of the core... unless we have a special case: jmp = jmp.b (+/- 127) jmp.ab (+/- 32767) That might be too great a complexity. In fact, having tiny relative branches would be of great educational value; this can still be a problem with modern CPUs, where we have 16 bit signed branch addresses in a 32 or 64 bit address range. > >I'm not sure if that's a good approach, actually. We should definitely >keep the parts of redcode'94 that are good and suitable for the goal of >the new system, but once we sacrifice downward compatibility, we might >as well give up compatibility entirely. Sounds fine to me. Hopefully this discussion will generate more opinions... perhaps someone can then distill all of them into a new standard. Fraser From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 23 18:33:14 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7NFXEJ10354 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:33:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7NFXCn29793 for ; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:33:12 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA20537; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9m334u$3jds$1@ID-68648.news.dfncis.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: aiforge@flatmem.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Dennis Luehring" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: tp finde more implementations of corewars.... X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: i've collected (nearly all) corewars page on my programming game link list... search for "corewar" on this page (more than 60 corewar related webpages(and projects)) http://www.gammax.net/aiforge/game-links.htm From jpihlaja@cc.helsinki.fi Tue Aug 21 19:59:26 2001 -0400 Path: news.helsinki.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.stealth.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail From: Hillis Newsgroups: rec.games.corewar Subject: KAT v5 Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:59:26 -0400 Lines: 290 Message-ID: <3B82F5DE.4138B080@erols.com> Reply-To: dbhillis@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVZJxkVq4i1wmfZ3y6wVuJYMb+ROeBk6b8Hdib/j43UW1naGRHIN6Kry X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Aug 2001 00:00:03 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD {STARPOWER} (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Xref: news.helsinki.fi rec.games.corewar:13837 Status: RO X-Status: ;redcode-94x ;name KAT v5 ;author Dave Hillis ;strategy - p-switch idea from John Metcalf ;strategy - borrows from Katafutr by Michal Janeczek ;strategy - Switch between paper with imps, incendiary bomber, ;strategy - Paul Kline's FireHouse, denial by David Moore, ;strategy - and 55HSB by Robert Macrae. ;strategy - Oh, and I signed my name at the top. ;kill KAT ;denial as w3 instead of lithium x 8 ;assert CORESIZE==55440 org think first equ w0 ; -- scanner vSpace equ 18480 vStep equ 13 vPtr dat vScan , tBoot+3 dat 0 , 0 dat 0 , 0 vAttack mov.ba vPtr , vPtr mov #vPtr-vSpiral , vSpiral add.b vPtr , vSpiral vSpiral mov.x @0 , @0 ; extract spiral increment mov.b @vSpiral , vSpiral vWipe mov vSpl , vPtr , >vPtr jmn.f vWipe , >vPtr add.ba vSpiral , vPtr ; try spiral search jmz.f vMod , *vPtr mov.ab vPtr , vPtr slt vPtr , #vClr+3-vPtr jmn.f vWipe , @vPtr vMod mod #vSpace-10 , vPtr vNext add #vStep , vPtr ; f-scan vScan jmz.f vNext , @vPtr mod #vSpace-10 , vPtr ; confine search space vSelf slt vPtr , #vClr+8-vPtr vGate jmz.f vAttack , vPtr+1 djn vNext , #9 ; count self-scans spl #0 , #0 vSpl spl #0 , #0 mov vClr , <-2 ; reverse-wipe to ;overcome self-stuns mov vClr , >vGate ; forward-wipe to win mov vClr , >vGate djn.f -2 , >vGate vClr dat 0 , 2-vGate for 10 dat 0 , 0 rof ; -- paper/imp copy eBackup stp #-1 , #PSTATE-5 spl 1 , {3785 mov.i {0 , #0 mov.i {0 , #0 mov.i {0 , #0 spl 1 , {9623 spl @0 , {16211 mov }-1 , >-1 spl @0 , {21445 mov }-1 , >-1 spl #0 , 0 add.f #35873 , 1 jmp -35873 , {12087 mov.i #35873 , *0 ; for 86 ; dat 0 , 0 ; rof ; -- bomber tStep equ 16134 tTime equ 9241 tGate equ (tWipex-3) tCheck equ (tHit+23) tDist equ 9362 tWipex dat 1 , tClear+5-tGate tSplx spl #tStep+1 , tClear+5-tGate mov.i }tCheck , #0 tPtrx mov tHit-tTime*tStep , *tHit-(tTime-2)*tStep add tInc , tPtrx mov tSplx , *tPtrx mov }tCheck , @tPtrx tHit jmn.a tPtrx , {tCheck tInc spl #3*tStep , <3*tStep tClear mov *tWipex , >tGate mov *tWipex , >tGate djn.f tClear , }tSplx tMov mov -tStep , }-tStep ; -- brain PSTATE equ 1100; not really w0 equ eStart w1 equ tStart w2 equ vStart ;w3 is lithium x8 ;w4 is 55HSB by Robert Macrae for 1 think ldp.a #0 , in ldp.a #PSTATE , table mod.ba *in , table stp.b *table , #PSTATE rof for 0 think nop #0 , in nop #PSTATE , table nop *in , table nop *table , #PSTATE rof ; S L W T ;table jmp first table jmp }0, # 1698 ; 0: action 2 : 8 4 3 spl # w4, # 288 ; 1: action 4 : 2 8 3 spl # w5, # 306 ; 2: action 5 : 7 12 6 spl # w0, # 1860 ; 3: action 0 : 1 12 0 spl # w2, # 2595 ; 4: action 2 : 8 5 0 spl # w2, # 719 ; 5: action 2 : 4 5 14 spl # w1, # 847 ; 6: action 1 : 2 7 7 spl # w1, # 1267 ; 7: action 1 : 6 7 7 spl # w4, # 1353 ; 8: action 4 : 1 9 3 spl # w4, # 1269 ; 9: action 4 : 8 9 9 spl # w0, # 1567 ; 10: action 3 : 7 13 7 spl # w5, # 1481 ; 11: action 5 : 12 11 11 spl # w5, # 1887 ; 12: action 5 : 2 11 12 spl # w5, # 1597 ; 13: action 5 : 11 1 7 spl # w2, # 2539 ; 14: action 2 : 4 5 4 in spl #w4 , 13 ; must have non-zero b-field in spl #0 , 14 ; the previous cell dat 0 , 15 vStart mov tDist+tSplx+1 , tDist+tMov ; -- paper/imp based on Black Box by JKW eImp equ 35873 eStart spl eBackup , {5465 stp #-1 , #PSTATE+5 spl 1 , {9753 mov.i {0 , #0 mov.i {0 , #0 mov.i {0 , #0 spl 1 , {4366 spl @0 , {16211 mov }-1 , >-1 spl @0 , {21445 mov }-1 , >-1 spl #0 , 0 add.f #eImp , 1 jmp -eImp , {12087 mov.i #eImp , *0 ; ----------- denial ---------- w5 equ boot hStep equ 859 hTime equ 23300 hDjn equ 45001 hOff equ 5 hDist equ 30133 hMain spl #5 , 1 ;for 85 ;dat 0,0 ;rof i13 equ 34117 i19 equ 29179 iD1 equ 203 iD2 equ 804 iDist equ 30361 imp1 mov.i #5, i19 imp2 mov.i #i13, *0 impy spl #i19, tPtr ,@tPtr mov >tPtr ,>tPtr jmn.f tWipe ,>tPtr tScan sub.x #-12 ,tPtr ; increment and look sne *tPtr ,@tPtr sub.x *pScan ,@tScan ; increment and look jmn.f tSelf ,@tPtr jmz.f tScan ,*tPtr pScan mov.x @tScan ,@tScan ; swap pointers for attack tSelf slt.b @tScan ,#tEnd+4-tPtr ; self-check djn tWipe ,@tScan ; go to attack djn *pScan ,#13 ; after 13 self-scans bw mov bb, 0, #0 db dat tSpl-tPtr, 1 dat 0, 0 tSpl spl 0, 0 dat 0, 0 bPtr dat 0, #tPtr tEnd dat 0, 0 ; ---------------------------------- From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 24 00:59:37 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7NLxaJ19749 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 00:59:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7NLxYn08808 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 00:59:35 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA23402; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Fraser > McCrossan > Sent: 23 août, 2001 10:32 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > >These days, that'd mean a point-and-click interface, with a GUI debugger > >and preferably a builtin editor and help system. pMARS may be a good > >simulator, but it's worthless as an IDE. jMARS might be better, but it > >still needs work. I wonder how "the other project" on sourceforge is > >doing these days. > > Well, "the other project" still announces new releases on Freshmeat > fairly regularly, for what that's worth. > > I guess the best approach to this is to divorce the actual simulator > code from the GUI code as much as possible, and write it as cleanly as > possible, with as little dependance on a particular build environment > and OS as is practical. This would then allow developers on each > platform to code around the same simulator. > > Standard C library calls would be abstracted (for example, the > simulator would call mars_malloc, and it would be the responsibility > of the UI programmer to provide appropriate calls for their > environment). This might sound like overkill, but the environment of > particular interest to me is PalmOS, where memory management is done a > little differently, and I'd assume similar was true of Pocket PC. The > simulator should do the parsing and execution of code, but nothing > else; it shouldn't try to read and write files, but should be passed > code via a memory buffer, and provide access to another buffer > containing the core. Perhaps it would also use callbacks to alert the > GUI of certain conditions - those are details. > > > > >It also occurs to me that the simulator ought to be net-aware. It > >should be able to access warrior archives on the internet, and probably > >also to contact hills and submit warriors. That, of course, requires > >coming up with a standard interface, but I think a thin layer over HTTP > >should be more than sufficient, and not hard to implement. > > > > Sounds like a good idea, but again this should probably be divorced > from the simulator itself, and be relegated to the GUI. In the case of > something like PalmOS, it may not make much sense to implement it at all. > > >We could call it RISCW, perhaps? > > I like that :-) Especially since we'll have one instruction per cycle... > > >>Let's see.. If this is supposed to be easy to learn, we probably don't > >want to allow opcode arithmetic. And we probably do want instructions > >to have separate source and target fields, too, since anything else is a > >pain to code. > > This also makes self-modifying code easier, since no bit-wrangling is > necessary in code to specifically change just one field. Although if > this is supposed to be a good code-learning experience, perhaps > encouraging self-modifying code isn't a great idea... :-) > > >Which pretty much means modifiers have to stay, unless we want to go the > >redcode'88 route and make them implicit to the opcode. I wouldn't. But > >all the indirection addressing modes can go, if we want. > > > > My preference would be to keep immediate, direct and simple indirect, > and dump the rest. All the others can be faked using these three. > > >That'd leave two modes for each field, and from four to eight modifiers. > >(I've always thought it'd make sense to treat the redcode'94 modifiers > >as a "field mask" of three bits, which would imply adding .IX to make it > >eight. Or we could remove .X, .AB and .BA to make it four.) If we keep > >the number of opcodes down, we could aim for one-byte internal encoding. > > > > One byte for each of the opcode, A and B, I take it? That would > prevent branches from reaching all parts of the core... unless we have > a special case: > > jmp = jmp.b (+/- 127) > jmp.ab (+/- 32767) [snip] Erhm... I don't know for you, but for me, RC was BNEVER meant to be an introduction to asm or anything remotely like that. It's a programming game. As Stefan Strass(?) put it, what's great with rc is that it's simple... yes, SIMPLE! 1 Instruction/clock, no weird addressing, no register with special case, etc. I think that we can hardly pretend that redcode is currently too hard to learn; I jumped in the game after ICWS '94, in grade ...7, if i believe the age of the first warrior i have on planar's page. My previous experience was some basic(which was also a great leap in my learning english ^_^). So, there are two views about this; one is that learning programming is easier later, when we have developped basic algebra, notion of variable, etc. The difference in RC is that there are NO variable, only an extremely big array. The second one is that learning anything is easier at a younger age; however, i wouldn't dare to try teaching stuff like algebra to a 7-8 yo(though it would be possible, both the student and the teafher would ahve to be REALLY dedicated, i guess 8) Conclusion: RC isn't meant to be a simulation of current asm programming, and ICWS '94 isn't that ahrd to understand. Another point i wouldn't want to lose is the relative addressing. It means that there are NO advantage in the positions, and that copying is much easier. That idea of having near and far jump is completely counter productive if we want to make it easier to approach, btw. I stand on my first idea:We need to breath life back in the game. Paul Khuong _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 24 02:35:27 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7NNZRJ19099 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 02:35:27 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7NNZQd22959 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 02:35:26 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA24089; Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: vschamehorn@compusmart.ab.ca Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "B. Vance Schamehorn" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Benedikt Eger wrote in message news:3B83EDC3.AC4557D5@web.de... > Hey, > I suppose not everybody read my reply to -=+ThE_sLuG+=-'s post, so I am posting > it again. It was meant to support a discussion about how popular Corewar still > is. So please post your comments and please don't flame me for posting the stuff > again. I am just fighting for Corewar to stay alive. > Well, here it is again: > > >Hm, > >what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar and > >immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would be whether or > >not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn Corewar. Of course a lot of > >people _know_ Corewar. But how many are still playing? I am not sure if I'd want > >to waste my time learning a such complex game if there were only a few players - > >who would want to learn chess if there were only ten players or so in the world > >left playing the game. > > > > With the hope to produce a lot of traffic in rgc, > > Benedikt > > > again, Benedikt > I'm relatively new to Corewar, but my humble opinion is that while chess and corewar both have steep learning curves, and comparatively few professional players, the one advantage chess has is the rank you get after a few tournaments from the US Chess Federation (or other body). This gives you a sense of accomplishment, and gives you something to show for any hard work and practice you put in. While I am not sure how many corewar players there are worldwide, it does seem that the hills are dominated by the top 15 to 25 players or so. Personally, I have yet to get a warrior on the hill, despite investing quite a lot of time in learning, testing, and tinkering. Perhaps we should re-work the hills to implement some sort of ranking system? One snag, of course, is that so many warriors borrow bits and pieces from other people's efforts. But then again, so do most chess games ... Also, I do agree that a better interface is necessary. It seems almost impossible to make pMars run properly on a Windows 95 or better system. --B. Vance Schamehorn From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 24 16:30:37 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7ODUaJ18477 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:30:36 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7ODUYn20683 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:30:34 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00576; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of B. > Vance Schamehorn > Sent: 23 août, 2001 19:34 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? [snip] > I'm relatively new to Corewar, but my humble opinion is that > while chess and > corewar both have steep learning curves, and comparatively few > professional > players, the one advantage chess has is the rank you get after a few > tournaments from the US Chess Federation (or other body). This > gives you a > sense of accomplishment, and gives you something to show for any hard work > and practice you put in. While I am not sure how many corewar > players there > are worldwide, it does seem that the hills are dominated by the > top 15 to 25 > players or so. Personally, I have yet to get a warrior on the > hill, despite > investing quite a lot of time in learning, testing, and > tinkering. Perhaps > we should re-work the hills to implement some sort of ranking system? One > snag, of course, is that so many warriors borrow bits and pieces > from other > people's efforts. But then again, so do most chess games ... > > Also, I do agree that a better interface is necessary. It seems almost > impossible to make pMars run properly on a Windows 95 or better system. Ranking system: What we COULD do is more like have a system with bigger hills, and simply segment the hills, so that you don't have to test like 100 matchups, but mroe like 50. Have each hill be amde up of 100 warriors, and composed of 5 pools (of 20 warriors). Let's say the hill is like: Pool A Pool B Pool C Pool D Pool E When a warrior enters the hill, it's first tested VS pool C. If it gets the lowest score, it is then tested VS Pool D. When a warrior is tested VS a hill, if it gets the best score, it enters as #1. When another warrior will enter the pool, if it still is #1, it gets promoted to the higher pool. Or something like that ^_^ What's described above is more or less the "normal" way pool work. For pMars. pMars works flawlessly for me 8) Though, i guess an IDE ~ like pShell would help newcomers. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 24 19:14:52 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7OGEqJ29664 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:14:52 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7OGEod19230 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:14:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA01828; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B867B2B.AF234247@web.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: benedikt.eger@web.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Benedikt Eger To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [de] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i686) Status: RO X-Status: Paul Khuong wrote: > > For pMars. pMars works flawlessly for me 8) Though, i guess an IDE ~ like > pShell would help newcomers. > This may be true for you and certainly is for me, but most people nowadays don't even know what a command line is. So if they are interested in Corewar it is really difficult for them to find out how to start the actual game. So it is not only hard to learn how to program a warrior, but it is also hard to start a battle. So if we manage to provide a nice GUI to code, test and submit warriors more people interested in Corewar would start learning it. Benedikt From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 24 20:33:00 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7OHWwJ05297 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:32:58 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7OHWtn11773 for ; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:32:56 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA02501; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: vschamehorn@compusmart.ab.ca Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "B. Vance Schamehorn" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Paul Khuong wrote in message news:NEBBIFPGCLEGEIMCMICOIEIDCIAA.paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com... [snip] > Ranking system: What we COULD do is more like have a system with bigger > hills, and simply segment the hills, so that you don't have to test like 100 > matchups, but mroe like 50. > > Have each hill be amde up of 100 warriors, and composed of 5 pools (of 20 > warriors). > > Let's say the hill is like: > Pool A > Pool B > Pool C > Pool D > Pool E > > When a warrior enters the hill, it's first tested VS pool C. If it gets the > lowest score, it is then tested VS Pool D. > When a warrior is tested VS a hill, if it gets the best score, it enters as > #1. When another warrior will enter the pool, if it still is #1, it gets > promoted to the higher pool. > > Or something like that ^_^ What's described above is more or less the > "normal" way pool work. > > For pMars. pMars works flawlessly for me 8) Though, i guess an IDE ~ like > pShell would help newcomers. > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > Enlarging the hills would still have the problem of the top few players dominating. Also, cascading the hills might cause sort of a layer-cake effect. For example, suppose Pool A ended up with a significant number of stones. Then the next few papers would be more likely to succeed, and those stones (which might fare excellently when compared with the whole set of pools) would fall down. Perhaps we could have different sets of pools and restrict membership. For example, have a Novice hill, Beginner Hill, Intermediate Hill, Advanced Hill, Expert Hill, and Grandmaster Hill. Players begin submitting to the novice hill, but when they reach a certain point (10 warriors making it to the hill, having a warrior stay on for 100 challenges, or whatever), they become ineligible for that hill and they and their warriors proceed to the next. This would allow newer players to compete on a more level field, and help avoid losing players to frustration. If novice chess players were routinely pitted against Grandmasters, there would likely be a lot fewer chess players. Also, you are correct about pMars. It does work for me. What I should have said is that I have trouble running pShell in a window. Sometimes switching warriors during a tournament causes a video weird-out. 8) A new IDE would be fantastic. -- B. Vance Schamehorn From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 25 01:35:44 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7OMZhJ21279 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:35:43 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7OMZgd28860 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:35:42 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA04515; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B86C6A6.7466E7F6@someoneelse.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: spam@someoneelse.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: HiEv To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Benedikt Eger wrote: > > This may be true for you and certainly is for me, but most people nowadays don't > even know what a command line is. So if they are interested in Corewar it is > really difficult for them to find out how to start the actual game. So it is not > only hard to learn how to program a warrior, but it is also hard to start a > battle. So if we manage to provide a nice GUI to code, test and submit warriors > more people interested in Corewar would start learning it. Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 25 02:19:23 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7ONJ5J15652 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 02:19:05 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7ONJ3n15481 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 02:19:03 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA04855; Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: zak_arntson@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Zak Arntson" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Fwd: Re: How popular is Corewar? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: >From: HiEv > >Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI >interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. A programming environment isn't very crucial, maybe just a text-edit box built in to the app. For a playing interface, I would like to see many different viewing options, support for clicking on an adress to bring up it's contents. Say the play field looked like: +-------+---+ | | | | A | B | | | | +-------+---+ | C | +-----------+ Where A was the core display, B was a scrollable zoom-in on memory (clicking on an address in A would scroll to that in B), and C was a control panel with stepping, running, halting, etc. options. If you had a separate section of the app that was a code-editor, it would be great to edit some code, hit the RUN button, and the app would immediately go to the screen above and watch it go. Of course, everything would be hotkeyed, so I wouldn't have to touch the mouse until I started clicking on the core :) And if we wrote some sort of GUI program and publicly opensourced it ... get a mention on Slashdot or something ... it may be done in no time. It seems like it would be a pretty easy app to write. It's just we need to find some coders with time. Zak Arntson mailto:zak@mimir.net http://zaknet.tripod.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 25 14:32:21 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PBWLJ09075 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:32:21 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PBWJn03954 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:32:19 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA10954; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <998733865.29549@itz.pp.sci.fi> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: iltzu@sci.invalid Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ilmari Karonen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article <3B86C6A6.7466E7F6@someoneelse.com>, HiEv wrote: >Benedikt Eger wrote: >> >> This may be true for you and certainly is for me, but most people nowadays don't >> even know what a command line is. So if they are interested in Corewar it is >> really difficult for them to find out how to start the actual game. So it is not >> only hard to learn how to program a warrior, but it is also hard to start a >> battle. So if we manage to provide a nice GUI to code, test and submit warriors >> more people interested in Corewar would start learning it. > >Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI >interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. Okay, random ideas coming up... I'm basing this more or less on current pMARS design, so that's where the assumptions come from: * 100% GUI-driven -- no need to use the keyboard for running a battle or for simple debugging. Most of what would be cdb commands in pMARS should be buttons. Filling text fields will of course be necessary in some places, but I'm sure you get the idea. * Conversely, everything should have keyboard shortcuts so that it can be used without touching the mouse. * There should be context-sensitive help for the GUI and for redcode / debugger syntax. * There should be a builtin editor with syntax highlighting and hooks to the debugger / core display. IDEA: There should be an option to have the cursor track execution in the original source. This *can* be done, by carrying source file/line data in every opcode. * The debugger should be scriptable. The scripting language should be much less obscure than in cdb. Ideally you should be able to construct simple scripts by recording GUI actions. The builtin editor should be able to highlight and indent debugger syntax too. * You should be able to open more than one core listing window at a time. The central core display should indicate (by background color change?) which parts of the core are listed. * IDEA: There should be an option to flip the core display along the diagonal axis, so that the primary direction becomes vertical. The core display should have wider gaps between lines than between adjacent core locations, to make visualization easier. * When loading warriors, it should be possible to fetch them by FTP or HTTP from the net. There should be an option to cache loaded warriors locally. (That'd probably require a standard listing format -- a simple tab-delimited file with filename/name/author/language fields should be enough.) * It should be possible to submit a warrior to a hill. An HTTP POST request resembling a form submission should do, once we decide the required fields for the request. (ISSUE: How to receive the results? Leave the connection open? Poll after N minutes? Submit an email address and forget about it?) Finally, this should *not* be just for the new RISCW language -- there should be at least enough modularity to allow compiling for different redcode variants, preferably of course multiple language support in the same executable. I can identify at least the following modular elements: - general GUI (menus, settings, etc.) - parser / assembler - simulator engine - visual core display (split into abstract / GUI-dependent parts?) - disassembler (for degugger / core listing) - debug script parser - debugger engine - debugger GUI (merge with general GUI code?) - debug script generator (?) - editor (use existing code, if possible -- editor needs to work with the parser(s) to make it syntax-aware) - help system (use native system if available -- needs very little interaction with the rest) - web fetch/submit code (use libwww or similar for low-level stuff) -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ '"Intuitive" in this situation can generally be translated as "Try the 100 most likely commands. None of them will work, but you'll kick yourself when you find out what you should have typed."' -- Charles Miller in SDM From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 25 15:35:36 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PCZaJ16880 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 15:35:36 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PCZYn23204 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 15:35:34 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA11450; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 08:34:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 08:34:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <998736986.701@itz.pp.sci.fi> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: iltzu@sci.invalid Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ilmari Karonen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , Paul Khuong wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Fraser >> McCrossan >> >> My preference would be to keep immediate, direct and simple indirect, >> and dump the rest. All the others can be faked using these three. Well, indirect means extra complexity, but I suppose we could keep that. That'd mean both A- and B-indirect, then? >> One byte for each of the opcode, A and B, I take it? That would >> prevent branches from reaching all parts of the core... unless we have >> a special case: Actually, I wasn't thinking of that at all. The one-byte remark was just something that occurred to me looking at the bit counts. I'd rather expect the opcodes to be a lot fatter than one byte in most implementations, since they'll have to carry all sorts of metadata for the debugger. Lean-and-mean server engines are a different issue. >I think that we can hardly pretend that redcode is currently too hard to >learn; I jumped in the game after ICWS '94, in grade ...7, if i believe the >age of the first warrior i have on planar's page. My previous experience >was some basic(which was also a great leap in my learning english ^_^). Sounds about the same as for me. The point is that all of us here are exceptions -- and all CW players will continue to be exceptions no matter how much we simplify the game. Most people, even most programmers, just don't write self-modfying assembly code for fun. Nonetheless, I think a simpler standard and a less indtimiating simulator could lower the bar. Besides, there is a completely different issue here -- one of the reasons new players find CW so challenging is that they have to fight uphill against seven years of incremental warrior development. A new standard, sufficiently different from redcode'94, would provide a fresh start. And, based on what I've seen, IMHO the way to start a new standard should indeed be simplification. Not only is redcode'94 complex, but it also happens to form a very logical whole, onto which extra complexity is difficult to add without making the result uglier. What we need is a new standard which is just as consistent as '94, but different, simpler. I'd also wish to make it different enough that it doesn't directly compete with '94 -- it will, of course, compete indirectly, just like anything else that distracts CW players from playing. But I'd still want it to be a new game, not a replacement for '94. Thus RISCW. >Another point i wouldn't want to lose is the relative addressing. It means >that there are NO advantage in the positions, and that copying is much >easier. Oh, definitely. Relative addressing must stay. I'd also say the same of SPL, the scoring mechanism, and a lot of other basic things. We don't want to forget all the good ideas we've learned. >I stand on my first idea:We need to breath life back in the game. I agree -- I think offering more variety in languages is one way to further that goal. And making a newbie-friendly simulator, which is another issue discussed in this thread, definitely is. -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ "Surely you're not suggesting that people who post to usenet are 'smart enough' to use a computer?" -- Mike Sphar in the monastery From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 25 15:49:35 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PCnYJ30866 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 15:49:34 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PCnYd10888 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 15:49:34 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA11630; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 08:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 08:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B877BBF.AF186E22@web.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: benedikt.eger@web.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Benedikt Eger To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [de] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i686) Status: RO X-Status: HiEv wrote: > > Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI > interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. Well, first of all it is important that the GUI is available cross-platform. Furthermore - we have to face it - most people are using Windows, so a Windows version is absolutely necessary ( maybe one could use the QT-library ). Then we have to provide functions for editing a warrior, debugging, of course starting a battle and submitting the warrior to some hill. Syntax highlighting would be a nice feature for the editor, and maybe we could include Ilmari Karonen's "Beginner's guide to Redcode" as a tutorial into the program, if he permits, plus a lot of additional help for the beginner. You also have to be able to set all the options from inside the GUI. To sum it up: Everything that is necessary to play corewar has to be included into the GUI. The user should just have to start it, code a warrior and click on a button to let it fight or submit it. Benedikt From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 25 23:31:41 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PKVfJ05185 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:31:41 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PKVdn17711 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:31:39 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14370; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 16:30:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 16:30:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9m9660.3vvq4vr.1@dedersen-15757.user.cis.dfn.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: bdedersen@uni.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Bartek Dedersen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Ilmari Karonen wrote: >> [New ideas for corewars] > Okay, random ideas coming up... I'm basing this more or less on > current pMARS design, so that's where the assumptions come from: > > [..] > Finally, this should *not* be just for the new RISCW language -- there > should be at least enough modularity to allow compiling for different > redcode variants, preferably of course multiple language support in the > same executable. But is this not a bit confusing for a new player? I try myself in Core War since the last two weeks and was shocked of the GUI of pmars/pshell so I tried "the other" implementation. There was a new language called "CoreWar" which is _very_ different from the ICWS standart. Now I do not know what I shell do, because I had to present my teacher corewars. The pmars do not work as I thought and the new ICWS draft is too difficult for my classmates and me so I have to use a "propriatary" MARS... > I can identify at least the following modular elements: > > - general GUI (menus, settings, etc.) > > - parser / assembler > - simulator engine > - visual core display (split into abstract / GUI-dependent parts?) Maybe if you "click" on a data-cell, it displays you the optcode and so on? > - disassembler (for degugger / core listing) > > [..] > - editor (use existing code, if possible -- editor needs to work with > the parser(s) to make it syntax-aware) Yeah! And than only once F9 and corewar starts with the warrior! Maybe a implamenttion of vim? > - help system (use native system if available -- needs very little > interaction with the rest) Maybe some sample-warriors in the different languages, which are good commented? > [..] I think, that I am a nub to corewar, but I want to take part in the development and give this cool game, where you learn "by the way" assambler, a new life! :) Greets, Bartek -- War doesn't decide who is right, only who is left. From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Aug 25 23:33:11 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PKXAJ13888 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:33:10 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PKXAd19339 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 23:33:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14391; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 16:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 16:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <998768165.17060@itz.pp.sci.fi> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: iltzu@sci.invalid Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ilmari Karonen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS-Colors and Numbers? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: >Can anyone explain the colors and numbers used in the graphical display of >pMARS? How do I tell which warrior is which? There are also other symbols >such as little squares and dashes. If anyone could explain this to me, I >would be very greatful. Okay, since no-one else has replied: First of all, there's an annotated picture a http://www.koth.org/pmars/ that should help a bit. As for the details: At the top, the colored lines are process counters. There's one for each warrior. The colors are assigned based on the order in which the warriors are given on the command line. Below them there's a white line that keeps shrinking. That's the cycle counter. When it vanished, the battle is declared a tie. Next from the top is the core display itself. It's made up of little squares that all start out black, one for each instruction in the core. The addresses increase to the right, and wrap to the next line at the edge of the display. Of course, the core is effectively circular, so the end (which is on the last line, but probably won't happen to be exactly at the bottom right corner) joins with the beginning. The first warrior given on the command line starts executing at absolute address 0, at the top left corner of the display. The other warriors all start at random positions. When an instruction is executed by a warrior, the square corresponding to it is filled with that warrior's color. (If the executing process dies, a darker color is used.) A write to an address produces a diagonal slash in the square, a read produces a dot in the corner of the square, and increments and decrements produce vertical and horizontal lines respectively. These marks are drawn on top of each other, so it's quite possible for a square to contain a mixture of colors. Depending on the display level (see below, and/or consult the pMARS manual) only some of the marks may be drawn. Below the core display is the status line. The blocks on the left side of it are the speed indicator -- using the > and < keys you can adjust the speed at which the battle is run. Next to that are the numbers 0 to 4, with the current display level shown in red. Next to that is even more status information -- again, consult the manual for details. Below the status line is the debugger. You *really* need to read the manual to understand that. -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ Join the Core War Imp Ring: http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/cgi-bin/impring From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Aug 26 01:35:00 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PMZ0J02154 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:35:00 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7PMYxd21145 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:34:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA15273; Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <998775387.27045@itz.pp.sci.fi> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: iltzu@sci.invalid Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ilmari Karonen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article <9m9660.3vvq4vr.1@dedersen-15757.user.cis.dfn.de>, Bartek Dedersen wrote: > >But is this not a bit confusing for a new player? I try myself in Core War >since the last two weeks and was shocked of the GUI of pmars/pshell so I >tried "the other" implementation. There was a new language called "CoreWar" >which is _very_ different from the ICWS standart. Now I do not know what I This is why I proposed the name RISCW, to tell it apart from ICWS'94 or any other existing language. That's actually my only annoyance with "the other project". I think they're doing interesting and useful stuff, and they're certainly spending rather more effort on it than I can spare. I just wish they'd chosen a name that wasn't already in use. -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ Join the Core War Imp Ring: http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/cgi-bin/impring From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 27 08:33:23 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7R5XNJ19913 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:33:23 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7R5XLn29859 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:33:21 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA27555; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: sliddicoat@home.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS-Colors and Numbers? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: k, small problem. All I have in my display is the core view. How do I get all the other stuff? I'm using the Win95/98 version of pMARS compiled by Nandor Sieben. My command line for running it is as follows: pmarsv -s 1000000 -c 5000000 -l 500 -k Please make any and all suggestions. Also, the core display does not look anything like the screenshot at http://www.koth.org/pmars/ Mine is never fullscreen, and each of the little squares are not little. Probably bigger than each letter you're looking at in this sentence. Its good to know that this will not seem weird 'only to me' now. Please reply soon. Thank you for replying in the first place. Sincerely, -=+ThE_sLuG+=- (Shea L.) "Ilmari Karonen" wrote in message news:998768165.17060@itz.pp.sci.fi... > In article , -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: > >Can anyone explain the colors and numbers used in the graphical display of > >pMARS? How do I tell which warrior is which? There are also other symbols > >such as little squares and dashes. If anyone could explain this to me, I > >would be very greatful. > > Okay, since no-one else has replied: > > First of all, there's an annotated picture a http://www.koth.org/pmars/ > that should help a bit. As for the details: > > At the top, the colored lines are process counters. There's one for > each warrior. The colors are assigned based on the order in which the > warriors are given on the command line. > > Below them there's a white line that keeps shrinking. That's the cycle > counter. When it vanished, the battle is declared a tie. > > Next from the top is the core display itself. It's made up of little > squares that all start out black, one for each instruction in the core. > The addresses increase to the right, and wrap to the next line at the > edge of the display. Of course, the core is effectively circular, so > the end (which is on the last line, but probably won't happen to be > exactly at the bottom right corner) joins with the beginning. > > The first warrior given on the command line starts executing at absolute > address 0, at the top left corner of the display. The other warriors > all start at random positions. When an instruction is executed by a > warrior, the square corresponding to it is filled with that warrior's > color. (If the executing process dies, a darker color is used.) A > write to an address produces a diagonal slash in the square, a read > produces a dot in the corner of the square, and increments and > decrements produce vertical and horizontal lines respectively. > > These marks are drawn on top of each other, so it's quite possible for a > square to contain a mixture of colors. Depending on the display level > (see below, and/or consult the pMARS manual) only some of the marks may > be drawn. > > Below the core display is the status line. The blocks on the left side > of it are the speed indicator -- using the > and < keys you can adjust > the speed at which the battle is run. Next to that are the numbers 0 to > 4, with the current display level shown in red. Next to that is even > more status information -- again, consult the manual for details. > > Below the status line is the debugger. You *really* need to read the > manual to understand that. > > -- > Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ > > Join the Core War Imp Ring: http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/cgi-bin/impring > > From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 27 14:33:57 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RBXvJ09512 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:33:57 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RBXtn29707 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:33:55 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA01034; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 07:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <998907641.7220@itz.pp.sci.fi> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: iltzu@sci.invalid Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ilmari Karonen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: pMARS-Colors and Numbers? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article , -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: >Please make any and all suggestions. Also, the core display does not look >anything like the screenshot at http://www.koth.org/pmars/ Mine is never >fullscreen, and each of the little squares are not little. Probably bigger >than each letter you're looking at in this sentence. Its good to know that >this will not seem weird 'only to me' now. Ah, you're looking at the text-mode core view. That one *is* weird, I agree. To get a more sensible graphical display, specify the -v option to pmarsv. (Read the docs on what the numbers mean, then experiment to find the display mode that works best for you.) -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ Join the Core War Imp Ring: http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/cgi-bin/impring From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 27 23:47:53 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RKlqJ13213 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:47:52 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RKlon03487 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:47:50 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA04899; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:45:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:45:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108270400.AAA25604@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 08/27/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/27/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Wed Aug 8 22:17:23 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 20/ 47 Freight Train David Moore 146 77 2 32/ 20/ 48 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 143 16 3 31/ 22/ 46 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 141 34 4 30/ 22/ 48 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 76 5 37/ 39/ 24 Stasis David Moore 134 184 6 39/ 45/ 16 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 134 73 7 35/ 37/ 28 PacMan David Moore 132 106 8 27/ 22/ 51 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 131 32 9 24/ 17/ 59 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 131 90 10 38/ 46/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 130 114 11 25/ 20/ 55 Jinglo John Metcalf 129 1 12 24/ 20/ 56 Test I Ian Oversby 129 133 13 31/ 33/ 37 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 26 14 35/ 42/ 23 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 128 352 15 33/ 39/ 28 Tangle Trap David Moore 127 150 16 24/ 22/ 54 Evoltmp 88 John K W 126 127 17 36/ 47/ 17 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 126 402 18 14/ 3/ 83 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 125 5 19 36/ 48/ 16 ig Wayne Sheppard 125 4 20 31/ 39/ 29 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 123 17 21 30/ 41/ 28 Carrot Grater '88 Brant D. Thomsen 119 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 27 23:48:20 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RKmJJ31578 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:48:19 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RKmHn30232 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:48:18 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA04922; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200108270400.AAA25608@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 08/27/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 08/27/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Wed Aug 22 11:44:50 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 40 83 2 fclear Brian Haskin 35 67 3 test John Metcalf 32 11 4 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 31 8 5 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 31 39 6 QuiVa John Metcalf 27 176 7 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 24 22 8 Her Majesty P.Kline 23 102 9 8thTest Gino Oblena 21 14 10 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 10 1 11 Wiggy-Wag Sven Koebnick 1 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 27 23:54:01 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RKs1J05645 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:54:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RKrxn04770 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:53:59 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05066; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:52:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Bartek > Dedersen > Sent: 25 août, 2001 16:30 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > Ilmari Karonen wrote: > > >> [New ideas for corewars] > > Okay, random ideas coming up... I'm basing this more or less on > > current pMARS design, so that's where the assumptions come from: > > > > [..] > > Finally, this should *not* be just for the new RISCW language -- there > > should be at least enough modularity to allow compiling for different > > redcode variants, preferably of course multiple language support in the > > same executable. > > But is this not a bit confusing for a new player? I try myself in > Core War > since the last two weeks and was shocked of the GUI of pmars/pshell so I > tried "the other" implementation. There was a new language called > "CoreWar" > which is _very_ different from the ICWS standart. Now I do not > know what I > shell do, because I had to present my teacher corewars. The pmars do not > work as I thought and the new ICWS draft is too difficult for my > classmates > and me so I have to use a "propriatary" MARS... Erhm...ok... LOL, i never thought a command line interface would be so "shocking" ;-) If you really need it ASAP, i suppose you could go and write a quick and easy front-end in VB. You basically need to elt them choose 2 warriors(standard input bar with a browse button beside it), have the output redirected to a temporary file, and if they "REALLY want to get in it" (LOL), you could have menus for everything else. Basically, pSHELL, dumbed down, in windows. Also, why can't you use pShell, actually? It lets you easily choose warriors, modify them, remake them battle, etc... Run tourneys too! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Aug 27 23:54:07 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RKs6J09821 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:54:06 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RKs4n23161 for ; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:54:05 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05089; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: Commments are inline 8) BTW, your email addie is @sci . fi, right? > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Ilmari > Karonen > Sent: 25 août, 2001 07:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > In article <3B86C6A6.7466E7F6@someoneelse.com>, HiEv wrote: > >Benedikt Eger wrote: > >> > >> This may be true for you and certainly is for me, but most > people nowadays don't > >> even know what a command line is. So if they are interested in > Corewar it is > >> really difficult for them to find out how to start the actual > game. So it is not > >> only hard to learn how to program a warrior, but it is also > hard to start a > >> battle. So if we manage to provide a nice GUI to code, test > and submit warriors > >> more people interested in Corewar would start learning it. > > > >Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI > >interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. > > Okay, random ideas coming up... I'm basing this more or less on current > pMARS design, so that's where the assumptions come from: > > * 100% GUI-driven -- no need to use the keyboard for running a battle > or for simple debugging. Most of what would be cdb commands in pMARS > should be buttons. Filling text fields will of course be necessary > in some places, but I'm sure you get the idea. Agh.. yes agreed...you'll have a rel big humber of menus, though 8) > * Conversely, everything should have keyboard shortcuts so that it can > be used without touching the mouse. Much more YES [snip] > * There should be a builtin editor with syntax highlighting and hooks > to the debugger / core display. IDEA: There should be an option to > have the cursor track execution in the original source. This *can* > be done, by carrying source file/line data in every opcode. Yeah.... Can be done with trace in cdb, no? 8) > * The debugger should be scriptable. The scripting language should be > much less obscure than in cdb. Ideally you should be able to > construct simple scripts by recording GUI actions. The builtin > editor should be able to highlight and indent debugger syntax too. How about having the debugger pluginable? Like, communicate with the debugger using calls or something, so everone can use his or her favorite language! > * You should be able to open more than one core listing window at a > time. The central core display should indicate (by background color > change?) which parts of the core are listed. Sure... Just spawn a new process... Having it reflected in the main window isn't as easy, though. > * When loading warriors, it should be possible to fetch them by FTP or > HTTP from the net. There should be an option to cache loaded > warriors locally. (That'd probably require a standard listing format > -- a simple tab-delimited file with filename/name/author/language > fields should be enough.) uh? Why not sue the current system? ;Assert ;Name ;Author Seems pretty good 8) > * It should be possible to submit a warrior to a hill. An HTTP POST > request resembling a form submission should do, once we decide the > required fields for the request. (ISSUE: How to receive the results? > Leave the connection open? Poll after N minutes? Submit an email > address and forget about it?) Well, has koth's upload warrior instead of email thingy worked? If not, well, i don't see why you wouldn't jstu be able to see everything on the webpage. > Finally, this should *not* be just for the new RISCW language -- there > should be at least enough modularity to allow compiling for different > redcode variants, preferably of course multiple language support in the > same executable. First, let's define RISCW. 8) How's the VM gonna be? What architecture? Etc... *MY point:Have a webserver that you can run to have a hill like you want to run it, easily. Different languages would be interesting... But i wanna keep a backward compatible version of ICWS '94, with some extensions. BTW,. ICWS '94 is pretty RISC 8) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Aug 28 00:00:16 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RL0GJ13571 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:00:16 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7RL0En32277 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:00:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05224; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Re: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Zak > Arntson > Sent: 24 août, 2001 19:18 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Fwd: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > >From: HiEv > > > >Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI > >interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. > > A programming environment isn't very crucial, maybe just a text-edit box > built in to the app. > > For a playing interface, I would like to see many different > viewing options, > support for clicking on an adress to bring up it's contents. > > Say the play field looked like: > > +-------+---+ > | | | > | A | B | > | | | > +-------+---+ > | C | > +-----------+ > > Where A was the core display, B was a scrollable zoom-in on > memory (clicking > on an address in A would scroll to that in B), and C was a control panel > with stepping, running, halting, etc. options. > > If you had a separate section of the app that was a code-editor, > it would be > great to edit some code, hit the RUN button, and the app would > immediately > go to the screen above and watch it go. > > Of course, everything would be hotkeyed, so I wouldn't have to touch the > mouse until I started clicking on the core :) > > And if we wrote some sort of GUI program and publicly opensourced > it ... get > a mention on Slashdot or something ... it may be done in no time. > It seems > like it would be a pretty easy app to write. It's just we need > to find some > coders with time. I like the concept... However, might i suggest you take a look at pmarsv?(either text mode or graphical if you ahve the 286 version). It has the most important pieces, imho, these pieces being: 1. Core (DUH! LOL) 2. Memory Listing 3. Command Line(YES! I want to keep these commands; they,re really a good thing, and i ahven'T amstered them to their fullest... at all) I'd Suggest: -------------- | | | A | | | -------------- | | | | B | C | | | | -------------- A= Core B= Memory Dump C= Command line/Output Oh, and lket's make the locations clickalbes; fe: If we had the cell "JMZ.f $-5, @-6", if we dbl-clicked on the a-field, we'd get to [loc-5], and the same for b-field. Maybe even make it so we can right-click, ahve a contextual menu -> go to indirect.(that would make the cursor go to where the location points to) However, i suck at GUIs, and i know zilch about GUI programming in Win32, so i'm not it 8) (If you need images for bg or slpash screen, i could try to make something) Anyway, It IS good for the community to try and see what is going on here. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Aug 28 05:31:26 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7S2VQJ03477 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 05:31:26 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7S2VOn18931 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 05:31:24 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA08129; Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 22:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: RBeesley@computer.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Ryan Beesley" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CoreLife X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: To me, it was an interesting programming model. It was linear, but then again it wasn't... I was just trying to track down more information about it since the only source I had was KOTH. /Ryan "Paul Khuong" wrote in message news:NEBBIFPGCLEGEIMCMICOGEBLCIAA.paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com... > > -----Original Message----- > > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Ryan > > Beesley > > Sent: 11 août, 2001 00:31 > > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > > Subject: CoreLife > > > > > > Where did this program come from, and is anyone doing any further > > development on it? KOTH.org is the only place I can find that references > > it. It was suggested that I try asking on the newsgroup. > It's dead and old... Never quite understood the interest, but anyway 8) > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 01-08-07 > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Aug 28 15:34:20 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7SCYJJ10044 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:34:19 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7SCYFn20048 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:34:15 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA13429; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <006301c12f95$e3abbc40$2100a8c0@HomePC> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ff95@dial.pipex.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Robert Macrae" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Status: RO X-Status: > Corewar has evolved in stages from a relatively simple instruction set > to a very complex one, one that is more complex than many real > CPUs. Also, it has many abstract features that real CPUs lack. In > part, this makes coding for it easier, but it also makes the language > more complex, raising the bar for those learning it. Could it be that > the learning curve required is now so steep that new players > appreciate the concept, but so much effort is required to reach a > competent level that they don't bother? I don't think it is language complexity that is the issue, but the highly optimised state of the hills. I know the instructions reasonably well, but that is far from enough. To write something new you have to analyse a complex situation, come up with a creative response, and code it, and loop. Coding quickly become the easy bit. For a while the underlying situation has been masked by the introduction of P-Space, because the strategy of tweaking existing components and plugging them into new P-Logic is still reasonably certain to make it onto the hill. This provides newcomers with an incentive to keep trying. However, there is a huge amount of stumbling around and playing around with flawed ideas to do before you are likely to create something that both looks new and works. The hills posses static parameters and have been the subject of intensive optimisation. Competitions go to another extreme, providing one-off challenges at which everyone starts with a clean sheet and has to guess what will happen. This is actually a lot more involving (and fairer) for beginners. The key problem with attracting new players is not the complexity of the instruction set but the difficulty of creating a satisfying result. As such it is chiefly determined by the competitive environment. Hills in their current form are no longer sufficient to push the game forward. The beginners hill is an excellent example of the right kind of development but more are needed... but what? I wonder if there is a middle way between competitions and hills, providing an automated but dynamic environment? Something like a hill in which the parameters drift over time? Delete random instructions from the full set each month? Actually, I don't have much of an idea what the solution looks like. However, I am rather confident that we should be looking at the competitive environment rather than at the instruction set. A new, simpler instruction set would simply defer the problem for a few months until the new set had been exploited in the efficient way we see in '94. Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Aug 28 21:05:25 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7SI5PJ04510 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:05:25 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7SI5Nn23023 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:05:23 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA15801; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Robert > Macrae > Sent: 28 août, 2001 08:32 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > > Corewar has evolved in stages from a relatively simple instruction set > > to a very complex one, one that is more complex than many real > > CPUs. Also, it has many abstract features that real CPUs lack. In > > part, this makes coding for it easier, but it also makes the language > > more complex, raising the bar for those learning it. Could it be that > > the learning curve required is now so steep that new players > > appreciate the concept, but so much effort is required to reach a > > competent level that they don't bother? > > I don't think it is language complexity that is the issue, but the highly > optimised state of the hills. I know the instructions reasonably well, but > that is far from enough. To write something new you have to analyse a > complex situation, come up with a creative response, and code it, and > loop. Coding quickly become the easy bit. [snip pretyt good analysis of the problem} I think you have hit the target with that. Everyone can understand the ~14 or so instruction, i think. Some conecpts are new and confusing at start, but nothing out of reach of Mr and Ms everyone 8) > The key problem with attracting new players is not the complexity of the > instruction set but the difficulty of creating a satisfying result. As > such it is chiefly determined by the competitive environment. Hills in > their current form are no longer sufficient to push the game forward. The > beginners hill is an excellent example of the right kind of development > but more are needed... but what? I wonder if there is a middle way between > competitions and hills, providing an automated but dynamic environment? > Something like a hill in which the parameters drift over time? Delete > random instructions from the full set each month? IMHO, that idea could work very well. Have rotations with different sets, where we know which instruction are going maybe a month in advance, but not which one are coming in... Keept he suspense, so that the hill at the start of the rotation is very dynamic 8) (this is what keeps many TCG from becoming stale, so why not try the same with cw? 8) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Aug 29 02:36:25 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7SNaNJ15664 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:36:23 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7SNaMd05892 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 02:36:22 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA18324; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: vschamehorn@compusmart.ab.ca Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "B. Vance Schamehorn" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Robert Macrae wrote in message news:006301c12f95$e3abbc40$2100a8c0@HomePC... > > Corewar has evolved in stages from a relatively simple instruction set > > to a very complex one, one that is more complex than many real > > CPUs. Also, it has many abstract features that real CPUs lack. In > > part, this makes coding for it easier, but it also makes the language > > more complex, raising the bar for those learning it. Could it be that > > the learning curve required is now so steep that new players > > appreciate the concept, but so much effort is required to reach a > > competent level that they don't bother? > > I don't think it is language complexity that is the issue, but the highly > optimised state of the hills. I know the instructions reasonably well, but > that is far from enough. To write something new you have to analyse a > complex situation, come up with a creative response, and code it, and > loop. Coding quickly become the easy bit. > > For a while the underlying situation has been masked by the introduction > of P-Space, because the strategy of tweaking existing components and > plugging them into new P-Logic is still reasonably certain to make it onto > the hill. This provides newcomers with an incentive to keep trying. > However, there is a huge amount of stumbling around and playing around > with flawed ideas to do before you are likely to create something that > both looks new and works. > > The hills posses static parameters and have been the subject of intensive > optimisation. Competitions go to another extreme, providing one-off > challenges at which everyone starts with a clean sheet and has to guess > what will happen. This is actually a lot more involving (and fairer) for > beginners. > > The key problem with attracting new players is not the complexity of the > instruction set but the difficulty of creating a satisfying result. As > such it is chiefly determined by the competitive environment. Hills in > their current form are no longer sufficient to push the game forward. The > beginners hill is an excellent example of the right kind of development > but more are needed... but what? I wonder if there is a middle way between > competitions and hills, providing an automated but dynamic environment? > Something like a hill in which the parameters drift over time? Delete > random instructions from the full set each month? > > Actually, I don't have much of an idea what the solution looks like. > However, I am rather confident that we should be looking at the > competitive environment rather than at the instruction set. A new, simpler > instruction set would simply defer the problem for a few months until the > new set had been exploited in the efficient way we see in '94. > > Robert Macrae > I agree completely. I found redcode ('94 standard) fairly easy to learn (although I had previous experience with assembly). The problem, as you said, is trying to get on the hills. A dynamic hill, with shifting parameters, would keep the players on their toes, but it does not address the gap between new players and experienced ones. If hills based on level of experience (which I suggested in a previous post) won't work, then perhaps we should look at some way to de-emphasize the warriors, and find some way to track the performance of the players, instead. -- B. Vance Schamehorn From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Aug 29 04:30:51 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7T1UoJ08637 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 04:30:50 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7T1Umn21368 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 04:30:48 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA19147; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B8C379A.B014FD0E@erols.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: dbhillis@erols.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Hillis To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: CoreLife Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Ryan Beesley wrote: > > To me, it was an interesting programming model. It was linear, but then > again it wasn't... I was just trying to track down more information about it > since the only source I had was KOTH. > > /Ryan > This is the right place to ask - just looks like none of us knows the answer. If you follow the "Imp Ring" from the Koth site, you'll find some A-Life/Core wars projects that are still active. Dave Hillis From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Aug 29 06:31:19 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7T3VIJ07345 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 06:31:18 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7T3VGn23334 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 06:31:17 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA20086; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 23:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B8C4E01.DF3D5A57@erols.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: dbhillis@erols.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Hillis To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: A Robert Macrae wrote: > I don't think it is language complexity that is the issue, but the highly > optimised state of the hills. I know the instructions reasonably well, but > that is far from enough. To write something new you have to analyse a > complex situation, come up with a creative response, and code it, and > loop. Coding quickly become the easy bit. I agree with pretty much all of what you say. There are two problems: keeping the pros engaged and getting the beginners hooked. They probably need different solutions. I imagine that most beginners start Core wars with the same expectation: they're going to dream up an original strategy, code up a warrior from scratch and send it off to do battle against other warriors written by people on the same footing. And it's going to be so incredibly cool! Instead, their only option is to play against warriors written using seven years worth of legacy code. If they want to even play on the "beginner's" hill, (which they can't anyway because PIZZA is frozen as usual) they'll have to re-use alot of other people's code. And, oh by the way, anything they do to actually change that code is almost certain to weaken it. Maybe if their first experience playing Core Wars was more in line with what they were expecting, beginners would be more likely to stick with it. What if there was a real beginner's hill where players were required (honor system) _not_ to re-use code from published warriors? Dave Hillis From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Aug 29 15:14:57 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7TCEvJ19469 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:14:57 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7TCEtn11219 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:14:55 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA24585; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:12:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:12:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Hillis > Sent: 28 août, 2001 23:30 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? [snip] > I imagine that most beginners start Core wars with the same > expectation: they're going to dream up an original strategy, code up a > warrior from scratch and send it off to do battle against other warriors > written by people on the same footing. And it's going to be so > incredibly cool! > > Instead, their only option is to play against warriors written using > seven years worth of legacy code. If they want to even play on the > "beginner's" hill, (which they can't anyway because PIZZA is frozen as > usual) they'll have to re-use alot of other people's code. And, oh by > the way, anything they do to actually change that code is almost certain > to weaken it. > > Maybe if their first experience playing Core Wars was more > in line with > what they were expecting, beginners would be more likely to stick with > it. What if there was a real beginner's hill where players were required > (honor system) _not_ to re-use code from published warriors? Point 1(newbies):It'Ms still possible. While developping an entirely enw archetype is enar impossible, taking a snippet a step further is very possible. FE, check http://www.koth.org/planar/rc/stargatevariant.txt. (yeah mine)..One of my very firsts, and for some reason, i have seen the same code pop up in a tourney viable warrior just last tourney ^_^. And, yes, modifying without understanding almost always elads to disaster 8) Honor system thingy: Simply always show the source. Have someone ACTIVE here check it out, so he knwos which warrior to boot off the hill. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Aug 29 16:35:18 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7TDZHJ14014 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:35:18 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7TDZFn10689 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:35:15 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA25151; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9miogb$2a497$1@ID-68648.news.dfncis.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: aiforge@flatmem.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Dennis Luehring" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: there are graphical versions of corewar! X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Core War for Windows 1.11 (http://tecfa.unige.ch/pub/software/win95/vieartificielle/wincor2/) Core Wars by Harald Markus (with debugger?) (http://harald.ist.org/download/corewars.html) Core War Tribes (http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~f95lith/CoreWar/CoreWar.html) ciao dennis (from germany) -------------------------------- http://www.gammax.net/aiforge/ From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 30 02:35:17 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7TNZGJ30707 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:35:16 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7TNZFd00310 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 02:35:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA29561; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9mjs6c$2ds$1@news.asu.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: sieben@imap1.asu.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: sieben@imap1.asu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: : getting the beginners hooked. To hook the beginners we could set up a core war belt system like the one in judo. It would contain a bunch of hills. A beginner would have to get on the first hill in order to be able to submit something to the next hill. The hills would be static. A submission would not compete against each other only against a few predetermined warriors. The hills would contain specialized wariors. They could be white or grey. Some of the hills would have limitations like certain instructions cannot be used, or the submission has to be of a certain form. For example the first hill could contain only an imp and the submission has to kill that imp, later on a hill could contain a few stones but the submission may not contain the cmp instruction. Choosing the restrictions on these hills would make it hard to submit existing warriors. The succesful submission could be stored, and they would go into the succesful person's diploma. Nandor From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 30 04:35:37 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7U1ZbJ02264 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:35:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7U1ZZd02432 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:35:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA00503; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mooredav@msu.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: David Matthew Moore To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: sieben@imap1.asu.edu wrote: > To hook the beginners we could set up a core war belt system like the one > in judo. It would contain a bunch of hills. A beginner would have to get > on the first hill in order to be able to submit something to the next > hill. I like the idea of a progression of hills, but with a few revisions. I don't like specialized hills that require a certain kind of submission. I don't want to dictate what code the beginner should write. He needs to write whatever he gets geeked on. You want the pupil to write something that he thought of. Instead, the progression of hills should match the progression of strategies throughout history. The first hill would have stuff like dwarf, mice, etc. Balance the hill so that the winning entry could be anything. The suggested reading for the first hill would be Dewdney's articles and an '88 tutorial. The hill warriors would be visible, so they could provide additional inspiration for starting points. Then good performance on that hill is rewarded by the next challenge. The next challenge may be fighting against some of the better ICWS tournament submissions. Be sure to include author names. Give the player the feeling of competing in _the_ annual tournament with combatants from all over the world. Eventually, they'd be fighting modern '94 warriors. Populate the hill with interesting strategies, not necessarily highly optimized warriors. Throw in ample links to relevant articles that give hints about the programs and their history. -- David Moore mooredav@msu.edu From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 30 04:47:57 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7U1lvJ27086 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:47:57 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7U1lud02646 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:47:56 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA00625; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of > sieben@imap1.asu.edu > Sent: 29 août, 2001 19:34 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > : getting the beginners hooked. > > To hook the beginners we could set up a core war belt system like the one > in judo. It would contain a bunch of hills. A beginner would have to get > on the first hill in order to be able to submit something to the next > hill. The hills would be static. A submission would not compete against > each other only against a few predetermined warriors. The hills would > contain specialized wariors. They could be white or grey. Some of the > hills would have limitations like certain instructions cannot be used, or > the submission has to be of a certain form. For example the first hill > could contain only an imp and the submission has to kill that imp, later > on a hill could contain a few stones but the submission may not contain > the cmp instruction. Choosing the restrictions on these hills would make > it hard to submit existing warriors. The succesful submission could be > stored, and they would go into the succesful person's diploma. Yeah.... And build some sort of mystique where we REALLY don't just hand out the answers, but make the newbies discover a solution themselves. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 30 04:53:59 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7U1rwJ15005 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:53:58 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7U1rvd02747 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:53:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA00716; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: jpihlaja@cc.helsinki.fi Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: M Joonas Pihlaja To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Hillis wrote: > Instead, their only option is to play against warriors > written using seven years worth of legacy code. If they want > to even play on the "beginner's" hill, (which they can't > anyway because PIZZA is frozen as usual) they'll have to > re-use alot of other people's code. I absolutely whole-heartedly agree. Perhaps we could persuade JKW to set one up at KOTH. Indeed, as Pizza is locked up most of the time, perhaps the Pizza hills should migrate to KOTH permanently? Of course, I'd rather they didn't on account of tradition and stuff, but working hills are better than none, yes? > Maybe if their first experience playing Core Wars was > more in line with what they were expecting, beginners would > be more likely to stick with it. What if there was a real > beginner's hill where players were required (honor system) > _not_ to re-use code from published warriors? I'm not sure I agree completely with non-reuse of code. IMO the best way to learn is to modify someone else's (successful) code and try to understand why it breaks when you touch it. Oh, and just for the record, The Great Wipeout of the -94 hill a few years ago *did* help, in that a few new players started to play, actually got on and stayed there. Dynamic is better than stale[1]. Joonas Pihlaja [1] See this hammer I've got here? Fancy a headache? OK then... So don't even think about it. From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Aug 30 16:31:33 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7UDVSJ22869 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:31:29 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7UDVRd28475 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:31:27 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA06588; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: foehg@localhost.localdomain Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: foehg@localhost.localdomain (Ransom Smith) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: M Joonas Pihlaja wrote: > > I'm not sure I agree completely with non-reuse of code. IMO the > best way to learn is to modify someone else's (successful) code > and try to understand why it breaks when you touch it. > Shoot, I rip Qscans wholesale, but I try to make the rest of it as original as I possibly can. > Oh, and just for the record, The Great Wipeout of the -94 hill a > few years ago *did* help, in that a few new players started to > play, actually got on and stayed there. Dynamic is better than > stale[1]. > > What was that? > Joonas Pihlaja > > [1] See this hammer I've got here? Fancy a headache? > OK then... So don't even think about it. > Hammer looks kind of musty. Haven't used it in a while? Gee, a headache would be so... dynamic just now... :-) -- [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] No, I don't Yahoo. --**([{ LIFE IS FAIR. --**-- LIVE WITH IT. }])**-- From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 31 01:38:09 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7UMc8J04736 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:38:08 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7UMc6n22480 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:38:06 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA10430; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 18:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: RBeesley@computer.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Ryan Beesley" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: A PalmOS based version sounds really intriguing. I can see people all over, beaming their new warriors around... Kinda like trading Pokemon, if you can forgive the reference. /Ryan "Fraser McCrossan" wrote in message news:slrn9oa26b.tlg.fmccross@localhost.localdomain... > ... This might sound like overkill, but the environment of > particular interest to me is PalmOS, where memory management is done a > little differently, and I'd assume similar was true of Pocket PC. The > simulator should do the parsing and execution of code, but nothing > else; it shouldn't try to read and write files, but should be passed > code via a memory buffer, and provide access to another buffer > containing the core. Perhaps it would also use callbacks to alert the > GUI of certain conditions - those are details.... From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 31 14:32:32 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7VBWVJ02649 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:32:32 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7VBWTn27391 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:32:29 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA16812; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 07:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 07:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mooredav@msu.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: David Matthew Moore To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Ransom Smith wrote: > M Joonas Pihlaja wrote: >> Oh, and just for the record, The Great Wipeout of the -94 hill a >> few years ago *did* help, in that a few new players started to >> play, actually got on and stayed there. Dynamic is better than >> stale[1]. > > What was that? About 2-3 years ago, I submitted a batch of at least 25 warriors to the -94 hill. Using Pspace, they rewarded each other with a score of 50/50/0, but they tied everything else. Consequently, the entire hill was replaced in about 25 battles in one afternoon. Every entry had an animal name :-) There was no attempt to break the deadlock. Instead, some people with eliminated warriors asked the hill admin to kill the new submissions, which he did. Those people had beem playing to achieve the highest age on the hill so that they could enter the Hall of Fame as presented in Core Warrior. For them, the authenticity of the tournament was ruined. What good are the age statistics now? However, at that time, the vehicle for attaining such age was routine optimization, not invention. Complaining about the ejection of yet another stone/imp combination is like mourning the cancellation of a television sitcom. Will anyone else really care? I didn't want players to be satisfied with boring warriors. I hypothesized that the removal of the age incentive would lead to a changing of priorities. I was hoping a change for the better, but I knew that it couldn't get worse. In retrospect, everything remained about the same. Anyway, after my programs were killed, anybody that submitted anything could get on the hill for the next few challenges. So people did. The rules prevented any warrior from aging until all of the spots were filled. Once the hill was populated again, the next submission caused everything's age to go from 0 to 1. Later, somebody created a new Hall of Fame (the third one?) to rank warriors that have competed since then. -- David Moore mooredav@msu.edu From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Aug 31 20:10:12 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7VHABJ02735 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:10:11 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f7VHA9d29248 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:10:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA18961; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <999274892.3b8fb98c26bb1@netmail.pipex.net> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ff95@dial.pipex.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: ff95@dial.pipex.com To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Quoting David Matthew Moore : > I was hoping a change > for the better, but I knew that it couldn't get worse. > In retrospect, everything remained about the same. Thought-process and outcome have a familiar, even universal ring. I think I have just chosen an epitaph 8-) Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Sep 2 20:35:11 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f82HZBJ10062 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:35:11 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f82HZ9n18646 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:35:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA09763; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 13:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 13:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9mtodv$au1$03$1@news.t-online.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: tsee@gmx.net Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Steffen Müller" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: "Hillis" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:3B925D04.2C11993C@erols.com... [snip] > I don't know if adding more hills would cause more people to play, but > I think that not doing it prevents them. Just as a short and not-so-constructive feedback from an interested newbie: This scheme would make me consider looking into Core War. The way it is right now, there wouldn't be a point to even try... Steffen Müller From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Sep 2 20:35:13 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f82HZDJ00730 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:35:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f82HZAn05175 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:35:10 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA09782; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 13:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 13:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3B925D04.2C11993C@erols.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: dbhillis@erols.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Hillis To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: David Matthew Moore wrote: > > About 2-3 years ago, I submitted a batch of at least 25 warriors > to the -94 hill. Using Pspace, they rewarded each other with a score > of 50/50/0, but they tied everything else. Consequently, > the entire hill was replaced in about 25 battles in one afternoon. > Every entry had an animal name :-) > > There was no attempt to break the deadlock. Instead,... Sounds like it would be fun to try. Maybe as part of the next tournament? Corewars has a lot of unwritten rules. Many of them are anti-competitive, when you think about it, and probably exist because they allow players with widely different skill levels to play on the same hills. Paul Khuong suggested something like a hierarchy of hills recently. I think this is a very good idea. It could be something like this (maybe on a trial basis): Take the draft '94 settings and create 5 new hills, call them divisions (or pools or whatever), and label them A-E. Any player can submit warriors anywhere, but they can only leave warriors on one division hill at a time. So if you have 3 warriors on the division C hill and you get a 4th warrior on the B hill, that's great, but now if you want to leave it there you must remove all your warriors from the C hill. You can resubmit them after your warrior(s) on B gets pushed off. The pros could play as ruthlessly as they want on the A division hill with no danger of pushing the rest of us out of the game entirely. I don't know if adding more hills would cause more people to play, but I think that not doing it prevents them. Dave Hillis From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Sep 3 17:54:53 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f83EsqJ31519 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:54:52 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f83Eson02075 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 17:54:50 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA18666; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109030400.AAA26729@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 09/03/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/03/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Sep 2 20:10:49 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 23/ 44 Inky Ian Oversby 143 121 2 30/ 19/ 51 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 141 642 3 30/ 21/ 49 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 140 231 4 40/ 41/ 19 Behemot Michal Janeczek 139 465 5 30/ 26/ 44 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 135 404 6 30/ 25/ 45 Olivia Ben Ford 134 370 7 30/ 26/ 44 Uninvited John Metcalf 134 324 8 42/ 51/ 7 test rt8 mj 134 1 9 33/ 32/ 36 Blacken Ian Oversby 134 889 10 38/ 43/ 19 Hazy Lazy ... Steve Gunnell 133 22 11 28/ 25/ 47 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 130 65 12 29/ 27/ 44 Revival Fire P.Kline 130 110 13 26/ 22/ 52 Vain Ian Oversby 129 107 14 36/ 44/ 19 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 129 599 15 20/ 12/ 68 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 128 342 16 31/ 34/ 35 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 127 343 17 26/ 26/ 48 Qtest Christian Schmidt 127 164 18 36/ 46/ 18 Jinx Christian Schmidt 126 605 19 35/ 44/ 21 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 125 39 20 36/ 47/ 18 Mosquito v0.2 Brant D. Thomsen 124 16 21 21/ 22/ 58 Mr Sheen Test C 11 Steve Gunnell 120 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Sep 3 18:00:35 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f83F0ZJ14463 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:00:35 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f83F0Wn07701 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:00:33 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA18690; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109030400.AAA26721@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 09/03/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/03/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Wed Aug 22 11:44:50 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 40 83 2 fclear Brian Haskin 35 67 3 test John Metcalf 32 11 4 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 31 8 5 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 31 39 6 QuiVa John Metcalf 27 176 7 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 24 22 8 Her Majesty P.Kline 23 102 9 8thTest Gino Oblena 21 14 10 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 10 1 11 Wiggy-Wag Sven Koebnick 1 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Sep 3 18:55:34 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f83FtYJ07873 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:55:34 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f83FtWn12535 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 18:55:32 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA18643; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109030400.AAA26717@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 09/03/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/03/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Wed Aug 8 22:17:23 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 20/ 47 Freight Train David Moore 146 77 2 32/ 20/ 48 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 143 16 3 31/ 22/ 46 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 141 34 4 30/ 22/ 48 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 76 5 37/ 39/ 24 Stasis David Moore 134 184 6 39/ 45/ 16 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 134 73 7 35/ 37/ 28 PacMan David Moore 132 106 8 27/ 22/ 51 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 131 32 9 24/ 17/ 59 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 131 90 10 38/ 46/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 130 114 11 25/ 20/ 55 Jinglo John Metcalf 129 1 12 24/ 20/ 56 Test I Ian Oversby 129 133 13 31/ 33/ 37 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 26 14 35/ 42/ 23 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 128 352 15 33/ 39/ 28 Tangle Trap David Moore 127 150 16 24/ 22/ 54 Evoltmp 88 John K W 126 127 17 36/ 47/ 17 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 126 402 18 14/ 3/ 83 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 125 5 19 36/ 48/ 16 ig Wayne Sheppard 125 4 20 31/ 39/ 29 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 123 17 21 30/ 41/ 28 Carrot Grater '88 Brant D. Thomsen 119 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Sep 10 03:31:14 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8A0VEJ27488 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 03:31:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8A0VCV22673 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 03:31:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA24114; Sun, 9 Sep 2001 20:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 20:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: peter.j.heaney@ntlworld.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "peter.j.heaney" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: too fast i need help! X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: A I origionally played corewars a year ago on an ancient amstrad laptop. I now have the problem that im trying to run it on my home pc as i no longer have the laptop. My pc is running Windows 98 on a 1200 MHZ athalon Firebird processor with ddr ram. Because my computer is so fast i cant see what is happening to my warrior when it battles and susiquently improving it is almost impossible. I have ried CPU Killer and it doesnt seem to make any difference, can you help me get the display back running at a normal speed. Thank you. Peter Heaney From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Sep 10 16:26:57 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADQvJ14108 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:26:57 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADQtV25453 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:26:55 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00291; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:24:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:24:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109100400.AAA21977@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 09/10/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/10/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sat Sep 8 06:54:38 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 19/ 47 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 148 31 2 39/ 34/ 27 Black Moods Ian Oversby 145 95 3 41/ 41/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 141 59 4 36/ 34/ 30 Ogre Christian Schmidt 138 47 5 26/ 16/ 59 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 136 39 6 32/ 30/ 39 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 133 28 7 17/ 7/ 76 Denial David Moore 128 40 8 26/ 24/ 51 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 128 38 9 29/ 33/ 37 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 126 99 10 15/ 7/ 78 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 124 168 11 18/ 13/ 69 Kin John Metcalf 123 7 12 13/ 4/ 82 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 122 116 13 14/ 7/ 79 Black Box v1.1 JKW 121 62 14 27/ 33/ 39 test CS 121 56 15 19/ 19/ 63 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 119 121 16 31/ 45/ 24 Pagan John K W 118 153 17 28/ 43/ 29 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 114 5 18 14/ 20/ 66 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 109 120 19 17/ 26/ 57 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 108 26 20 14/ 21/ 64 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 107 1 21 11/ 23/ 66 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 99 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Sep 10 16:27:00 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADR0J02075 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:27:00 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADQwV25457 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:26:58 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00319; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109100400.AAA21973@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 09/10/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/10/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sat Sep 8 07:01:14 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 test John Metcalf 29 12 2 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 23 23 3 QuiVa John Metcalf 20 177 4 8thTest Gino Oblena 20 15 5 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 15 84 6 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 15 40 7 fclear Brian Haskin 14 68 8 Her Majesty P.Kline 13 103 9 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 9 2 10 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 7 1 11 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 2 9 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Sep 10 16:33:07 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADX6J15093 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:33:06 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADX5V26027 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:33:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00437; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109100400.AAA21983@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 09/10/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/10/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Sep 9 19:51:53 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 44/ 38/ 18 Hazy Lazy ... Steve Gunnell 151 9 2 34/ 23/ 43 Inky Ian Oversby 145 146 3 31/ 21/ 48 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 142 256 4 41/ 40/ 19 Behemot Michal Janeczek 142 490 5 29/ 19/ 52 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 139 667 6 35/ 31/ 35 Blacken Ian Oversby 139 914 7 30/ 27/ 43 Revival Fire P.Kline 134 135 8 28/ 22/ 50 Vain Ian Oversby 134 132 9 38/ 43/ 19 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 132 624 10 29/ 27/ 44 Olivia Ben Ford 131 395 11 41/ 52/ 7 He Scans Alone P.Kline 130 12 12 32/ 34/ 34 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 130 368 13 29/ 28/ 43 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 130 429 14 28/ 27/ 45 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 130 90 15 21/ 13/ 66 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 129 367 16 29/ 29/ 42 Uninvited John Metcalf 128 349 17 37/ 46/ 17 Jinx Christian Schmidt 128 630 18 27/ 26/ 47 Qtest Christian Schmidt 128 189 19 25/ 23/ 53 SMMJ 2.7 Robert Macrae 127 1 20 35/ 46/ 19 Mosquito v0.2 Brant D. Thomsen 124 41 21 31/ 57/ 12 Spray Test 4 Steve Gunnell 105 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Sep 10 16:33:30 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADXTJ11209 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:33:30 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADXSV26082 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:33:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00460; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109100400.AAA21969@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 09/10/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/10/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Wed Aug 8 22:17:23 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 20/ 47 Freight Train David Moore 146 77 2 32/ 20/ 48 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 143 16 3 31/ 22/ 46 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 141 34 4 30/ 22/ 48 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 76 5 37/ 39/ 24 Stasis David Moore 134 184 6 39/ 45/ 16 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 134 73 7 35/ 37/ 28 PacMan David Moore 132 106 8 27/ 22/ 51 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 131 32 9 24/ 17/ 59 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 131 90 10 38/ 46/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 130 114 11 25/ 20/ 55 Jinglo John Metcalf 129 1 12 24/ 20/ 56 Test I Ian Oversby 129 133 13 31/ 33/ 37 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 26 14 35/ 42/ 23 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 128 352 15 33/ 39/ 28 Tangle Trap David Moore 127 150 16 24/ 22/ 54 Evoltmp 88 John K W 126 127 17 36/ 47/ 17 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 126 402 18 14/ 3/ 83 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 125 5 19 36/ 48/ 16 ig Wayne Sheppard 125 4 20 31/ 39/ 29 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 123 17 21 30/ 41/ 28 Carrot Grater '88 Brant D. Thomsen 119 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Sep 10 16:39:26 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADdQJ27905 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:39:26 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADdOV26600 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:39:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00648; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: jpihlaja@cc.helsinki.fi Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: M Joonas Pihlaja To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: too fast i need help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, peter.j.heaney wrote: > I origionally played corewars a year ago on an ancient > amstrad laptop. I now have the problem that im trying to run > it on my home pc as i no longer have the laptop. My pc is > running Windows 98 on a 1200 MHZ athalon Firebird processor > with ddr ram. Because my computer is so fast i cant see what > is happening to my warrior when it battles and susiquently > improving it is almost impossible. I have ried CPU Killer and > it doesnt seem to make any difference, can you help me get > the display back running at a normal speed. The option -v xyz (where xyz is a three digit mode specifier) for the graphical version lets you choose the display mode, and more importantly, the update speed. The speed is controlled by the number 'x', where 0 is the fastest and 7 the slowest (according to the docs, although I seem to remember that you could go all the way up to 9). Try -v 714, or -v 713, for example (The default mode might be -v 113, IIRC). e.g. C:\pmars> pmarsv -v 714 -ber 100 aeka.red validate.red If you're using the pShell front-end, I'm sorry I can't remember what particular menu has the thing you need. You can also change the display while debugging: you use the cdb command 'display', or 'd' for short, to set the display mode. e.g. (cdb) d 714 See the file pmars.doc that should have come with the pmars package for more info on display modes and everything. HTH, Joonas From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Sep 10 16:39:41 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADdfJ09991 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:39:41 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f8ADdan14116 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:39:36 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00625; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: too fast i need help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of > peter.j.heaney > Sent: 9 septembre, 2001 20:30 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: too fast i need help! > > > I origionally played corewars a year ago on an ancient amstrad > laptop. I now > have the problem that im trying to run it on my home pc as i no > longer have > the laptop. My pc is running Windows 98 on a 1200 MHZ athalon Firebird > processor with ddr ram. Because my computer is so fast i cant see what is > happening to my warrior when it battles and susiquently improving it is > almost impossible. I have ried CPU Killer and it doesnt seem to make any > difference, can you help me get the display back running at a > normal speed. Read the docs. There are keys to slower the game(< i think) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release Date: 01-09-05 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: http://members.fortunecity.com/gamesworld2 From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 16:47:10 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDlAA21160 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:47:10 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDl8Z22468 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:47:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA26884; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:45:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:45:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9oll2t$s9k$527@neptunium.btinternet.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: smithie@altavista.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: smithie@altavista.com To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: SuperFast Internet Search Site... 7068 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: http://superfastsearch.tripod.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 16:48:36 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDmZA25286 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:48:35 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDmYZ16857 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:48:34 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA26930; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9onhk6$e7sbc$1@ID-68648.news.dfncis.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: aiforge@flatmem.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Dennis Luehring" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: huge link page about programming games like crobots, probots, arobots, robocode, omega, bolo,...more than 700links X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: hi i just to inform you about my programming game link list - (more an archiv than a community)... try http://www.gammax.net/aiforge/ or http://tpga.virtualave.net/ (mirror) or http://www.aiforge.net/ (mirror) here you will find ALL links to programming games like corewar, crobots, probots, arobots, colobot, mindrover, javabots, rars,.... more than 700links ciao aiforge ----------------------------------------------- ps: please join my mailinglist From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 16:50:00 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDo0A25873 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:50:00 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDnxZ05038 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:49:59 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA26975; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3baf754b.335365718@223.223.223.239> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mpwilson@earthlink.net Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: mpwilson@earthlink.net (Michael P. Wilson) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: huge link page about programming games like crobots, probots, arobots, robocode, omega, bolo,...more than 700links X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: NICE!!! That's a great set of links. Thanks for the post. - M On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:57:27 +0200, "Dennis Luehring" wrote: >hi i just to inform you about my programming game link list - (more an >archiv than a community)... > >try http://www.gammax.net/aiforge/ >or http://tpga.virtualave.net/ (mirror) >or http://www.aiforge.net/ (mirror) > >here you will find ALL links to programming games like corewar, crobots, >probots, arobots, colobot, mindrover, javabots, rars,.... more than 700links > >ciao aiforge >----------------------------------------------- >ps: please join my mailinglist > > > > > > > > From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 16:51:22 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDpMA25577 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:51:22 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDpLZ20172 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:51:21 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA27017; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:49:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9oqbfu$7ih$526@uranium.btinternet.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: otjlyt@fornland.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: otjlyt@fornland.com To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Backdoor Passwords To XXX Sites... 6406 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: at http://password.calliejo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 16:52:52 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDqpA23402 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:52:51 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDqoZ19948 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:52:50 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA27068; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9p0p8a$iq4$150@uranium.btinternet.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: prccwr@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: prccwr@yahoo.com To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Games site for ps1,ps2,xbox,nintendo,pc,dreamcast & more! 9714 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: http://members.fortunecity.com/multi3/games From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 16:54:14 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDsDA24422 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:54:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDsCZ19982 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:54:12 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA27109; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9pdehu$a1c$374@newsie.singa.pore.net> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: Warrior@AntiTerrorism.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Anti-Terrorism Warrior" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Kill The World No. 1 WANTED MAN X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Join the Gamers to Capture OSAMA BIN LADEN Click http://www.cyberextruder.com/template.asp?page=20 Click http://www.ec8.com/Games/Gamem.html for more web games ! From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 16:55:54 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDtsA26110 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:55:54 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDtqZ14358 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:55:52 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA27160; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:54:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:54:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9ph7d9$ir2vl$1@ID-68648.news.dfncis.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: aiforge@flatmem.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Dennis Luehring" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Core War Frequently Asked Questions (rec.games.corewar FAQ) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: hi anton, can you add www.aiforge.net to your list of corewar related pages? "Anton Marsden" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:games/corewar-faq_1002102933@rtfm.mit.edu... > Archive-name: games/corewar-faq > Last-Modified: September 4, 1999 > Version: 4.2 > URL: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.html > Copyright: (c) 1999 Anton Marsden > Maintainer: Anton Marsden > Posting-Frequency: once every 2 weeks > > Core War Frequently Asked Questions > > (rec.games.corewar FAQ) > > These are the Frequently Asked Questions (and answers) from the Usenet > newsgroup rec.games.corewar. A plain text version of this document is posted > every two weeks. The latest hypertext version is available at > http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.html and the latest > plain text version is available at > http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.txt. > > This document is currently being maintained by Anton Marsden > (anton@paradise.net.nz). > > Last modified: Sat Sep 4 00:22:22 NZST 1999 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To Do > > * Add the new No-PSpace '94 hill location > * Add online location of Dewdney's articles > * Make question 17 easier to understand. Add a state diagram? > * Add info about infinite hills, related games (C-Robots, Tierra?, ...) > * New question: How do I know if my warrior is any good? Refer to > beginners' benchmarks, etc. > * Add a Who's Who list? > * Would very much like someone to compile a collection of the > "revolutionary" warriors so that beginners can see how the game has > developed over the years. Mail me if interested. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > What's New > > * Changed primary location of FAQ (again!) > * Changed Philip Kendall's home page address. > * Updated list server information > * Changed primary location of FAQ > * Vector-launching code was fixed thanks to Ting Hsu. > * Changed the location of Ryan Coleman's paper (LaunchPad -> Launchpad) > * Changed pauillac.inria.fr to para.inria.fr > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Table of Contents > > 1. What is Core War > 2. Is it "Core War" or "Core Wars"? > 3. Where can I find more information about Core War? > 4. Core War has changed since Dewdney's articles. Where do I get a copy of > the current instruction set? > 5. What is ICWS'94? Which simulators support ICWS'94? > 6. What is the ICWS? > 7. What is Core Warrior? > 8. Where are the Core War archives? > 9. Where can I find a Core War system for ...? > 10. Where can I find warrior code? > 11. I do not have FTP. How do I get all this great stuff? > 12. I do not have access to Usenet. How do I post and receive news? > 13. Are there any Core War related WWW sites? > 14. What is KotH? How do I enter? > 15. Is it DAT 0, 0 or DAT #0, #0? How do I compare to core? > 16. How does SLT (Skip if Less Than) work? > 17. What is the difference between in-register and in-memory evaluation? > 18. What is P-space? > 19. What does "Missing ;assert .." in my message from KotH mean? > 20. How should I format my code? > 21. Are there any other Core War related resources I should know about? > 22. What does (expression or term of your choice) mean? > 23. Other questions? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 1. What is Core War? > > Core War is a game played by two or more programs (and vicariously by their > authors) written in an assembly language called Redcode and run in a virtual > computer called MARS (for Memory Array Redcode Simulator). The object of the > game is to cause all processes of the opposing program to terminate, leaving > your program in sole posession of the machine. > > There are Core War systems available for most computer platforms. Redcode > has been standardised by the ICWS, and is therefore transportable between > all standard Core War systems. > > The system in which the programs run is quite simple. The core (the memory > of the simulated computer) is a continuous array of instructions, empty > except for the competing programs. The core wraps around, so that after the > last instruction comes the first one again. > > There are no absolute addresses in Core War. That is, the address 0 doesn't > mean the first instruction in the memory, but the instruction that contains > the address 0. The next instruction is 1, and the previous one obviously -1. > However, all numbers are treated as positive, and are in the range 0 to > CORESIZE-1 where CORESIZE is the amount of memory locations in the core - > this means that -1 would be treated as CORESIZE-1 in any arithmetic > operations, eg. 3218 + 7856 = (3218 + 7856) mod CORESIZE. Many people get > confused by this, and it is particularly important when using the SLT > instruction. Note that the source code of a program can still contain > negative numbers, but if you start using instructions like DIV #-2, #5 it is > important to know what effect they will have when executed. > > The basic unit of memory in Core War is one instruction. Each Redcode > instruction contains three parts: > > * the opcode > * the source address (a.k.a. the A-field) > * the destination address (a.k.a. the B-field) > > The execution of the programs is equally simple. The MARS executes one > instruction at a time, and then proceeds to the next one in the memory, > unless the instruction explicitly tells it to jump to another address. If > there is more than one program running, (as is usual) the programs execute > alternately, one instruction at a time. The execution of each instruction > takes the same time, one cycle, whether it is MOV, DIV or even DAT (which > kills the process). > > Each program may have several processes running. These processes are stored > in a task queue. When it is the program's turn to execute an instruction it > dequeues a process and executes the corresponding instruction. Processes > that are not killed during the execution of the instruction are put back > into the task queue. Processes created by a SPL instruction are added to the > task queue after the creating process is put back into the task queue. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 2. Is it "Core War" or "Core Wars"? > > Both terms are used. Early references were to Core War. Later references > seem to use Core Wars. I prefer "Core War" to refer to the game in general, > "core wars" to refer to more than one specific battle. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 3. Where can I find more information about Core War? > > Core War was first described in the Core War Guidelines of March, 1984 by D. > G. Jones and A. K. Dewdney of the Department of Computer Science at The > University of Western Ontario (Canada). Dewdney wrote several "Computer > Recreations" articles in Scientific American which discussed Core War, > starting with the May 1984 article. Those articles are contained in two > anthologies: > > Library of > Author Title Published ISBN Congress > Call Number > The Armchair > Dewdney, Universe: An New York: W. QA76.6 .D517 > A. K. Exploration of H. Freeman ©0-7167-1939-8 1988 > Computer Worlds 1988 > The Magic 0-7167-2125-2 > Dewdney, Machine: A New York: W.(Hardcover), QA76.6 > A. K. Handbook of H. Freeman ©0-7167-2144-9 .D5173 1990 > Computer Sorcery 1990 (Paperback) > > A.K. Dewdney's articles are still the most readable introduction to Core > War, even though the Redcode dialect described in there is no longer > current. For those who are interested, Dewdney has a home page at > http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 4. Core War has changed since Dewdney's articles. Where do I get a copy of > the current instruction set? > > A draft of the official standard (ICWS'88) is available as > ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/standards/redcode-icws-88.Z. This > document is formatted awkwardly and contains ambiguous statements. For a > more approachable intro to Redcode, take a look at Mark Durham's tutorials, > ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/tutorial.1.Z and > ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/tutorial.2.Z. > > Steven Morrell has prepared a more practically oriented Redcode tutorial > that discusses different warrior classes with lots of example code. This and > various other tutorials can be found at http://www.koth.org/papers.html. > > Even though ICWS'88 is still the "official" standard, you will find that > most people are playing by ICWS'94 draft rules and extensions. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 5. What is ICWS'94? Which simulators support ICWS'94? > > There is an ongoing discussion about future enhancements to the Redcode > language. A proposed new standard, dubbed ICWS'94, is currently being > evaluated. A major change is the addition of "instruction modifiers" that > allow instructions to modify A-field, B-field or both. Also new is a new > addressing modes and unrestricted opcode and addressing mode combination > ("no illegal instructions"). ICWS'94 is backwards compatible; i.e. ICWS'88 > warriors will run correctly on an ICWS'94 system. Take a look at the ICWS'94 > draft at ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/icws94.0202.Z for more > information. There is a HTML version of this document available at > http://www.koth.org/info/icws94.html. You can try out the new standard by > submitting warriors to the '94 hills of the KotH servers. Two corewar > systems currently support ICWS'94, pMARS (many platforms) and Redcoder > (Mac), both available at ftp://www.koth.org/corewar. Note that Redcoder only > supports a subset of ICWS'94. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 6. What is the ICWS? > > About one year after Core War first appeared in Scientific American, the > "International Core War Society" (ICWS) was established. Since that time, > the ICWS has been responsible for the creation and maintenance of Core War > standards and the running of Core War tournaments. There have been six > annual tournaments and two standards (ICWS'86 and ICWS'88). The ICWS is no > longer active. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 7. What is Core Warrior? > > Following in the tradition of the Core War News Letter, Push Off, and The 94 > Warrior, Core Warrior is a newsletter about strategies and current standings > in Core War. Started in October 1995, back issues of Core Warrior (and the > other newsletters) are available at http://para.inria.fr/~doligez/corewar/. > There is also a Core Warrior index page at > http://www.kendalls.demon.co.uk/pak21/corewar/warrior.html which has a > summary of the contents of each issue of Core Warrior. Many of the earlier > issues contain useful information for beginners. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 8. Where are the Core War archives? > > Many documents such as the guidelines and the ICWS standards along with > previous tournament Redcode entries and complete Core War systems are > available via anonymous ftp from ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/corewar. > Also, most of past rec.games.corewar postings (including Redcode source > listings) are archived there. Jon Blow (blojo@csua.berkeley.edu) is the > archive administrator. When uploading to /pub/corewar/incoming, ask Jon to > move your upload to the appropriate directory and announce it on the net. > > This site is mirrored at: > > * http://www.koth.org/corewar/ > * ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/ > * ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/mirror > > The plain text version of this FAQ is automatically archived by news.answers > (but this version is probably out-of-date). > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 9. Where can I find a Core War system for . . . ? > > Core War systems are available via anonymous FTP from www.koth.org in the > corewar/systems directory. Currently, there are UNIX, IBM PC-compatible, > Macintosh, and Amiga Core War systems available there. It is a good idea to > check ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/incoming for program updates first. > > CAUTION! There are many, many Core War systems available which are NOT > ICWS'88 (or even ICWS'86) compatible available at various archive sites > other than www.koth.org. Generally, the older the program - the less likely > it will be ICWS compatible. > > If you are looking for an ICWS'94 simulator, get pMARS, which is available > for many platforms and can be downloaded from: > > * ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/corewar (original site) > * ftp://www.koth.org/corewar (koth.org mirror) > * ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/mirror (Planar > mirror) > * http://www.nc5.infi.net/~wtnewton/corewar/ (Terry Newton) > * ftp://members.aol.com/ofechner/corewar (Fechter) > > Notes: > > * If you have trouble running pMARS with a graphical display under Win95 > then check out http://www.koth.org/pmars.html which should have a > pointer to the latest compilation of pMARS for this environment. > * RPMs for the Alpha, PowerPC, Sparc and i386 can be found at > ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/pmars-rpm/ > > Reviews of Core War systems would be greatly appreciated in the newsgroup > and in the newsletter. > > Below is a not necessarily complete or up-to-date list of what's available > at www.koth.org: > MADgic41.lzh corewar for the Amiga, v4.1 > MAD4041.lzh older version? > MAD50B.lha corewar for the Amiga, beta version 5.0 > > Redcoder-21.hqx corewar for the Mac, supports ICWS'88 and '94 > (without extensions) > core-11.hqx corewar for the Mac > core-wars-simulator.hqx same as core-11.hqx? > > corewar_unix_x11.tar.Z corewar for UNIX/X-windows, ICWS'86 but not ICWS'88 > compatible > > koth31.tar.Z corewar for UNIX/X-windows. This program ran the > former KotH server at intel.com > koth.shar.Z older version > kothpc.zip port of older version of KotH to the PC > > deluxe20c.tar.Z corewar for UNIX (broken X-windows or curses) and > PC > mars.tar.Z corewar for UNIX, likely not ICWS'88 compatible > icons.zip corewar icons for MS-Windows > macrored.zip a redcode macro-preprocessor (PC) > c88v49.zip PC corewar, textmode display > mars88.zip PC corewar, graphics mode display > corwp302.zip PC corewar, textmode display, slowish > mercury2.zip PC corewar written in assembly, fast! > mtourn11.zip tournament scheduler for mercury (req. 4DOS) > > pmars08s.zip portable system, ICWS'88 and '94, runs on UNIX, PC, > Mac, Amiga. C source archive > pmars08s.tar.Z same as above > pmars08.zip PC executables with graphics display, req 386+ > > macpmars02.sit.hqx pMARS executable for Mac (port of version 0.2) > buggy, no display > MacpMARS1.99a.cpt.hqx port of v0.8 for the Mac, with display and debugger > MacpMARS1.0s.cpt.hqx C source (MPW, ThinkC) for Mac frontend > > pvms08.zip pMARS v0.8 for VMS build files/help (req. > pmars08s.zip) > ApMARS03.lha pMARS executable for Amiga (port of version 0.3.1) > wincor11.zip MS-Windows system, shareware ($15) > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 10. Where can I find warrior code? > > To learn the game, it is a good idea to study previously posted warrior > code. The FTP archives have code in the ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/redcode > directory. A clearly organized on-line warrior collection is available at > the Core War web sites (see below). > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 11. I do not have FTP. How do I get all this great stuff? > > There is an FTP email server at bitftp@pucc.princeton.edu. This address may > no longer exist. I haven't tested it yet. Send email with a subject and body > text of "help" (without the quotes) for more information on its usage. Note > that many FTP email gateways are shutting down due to abuse. To get a > current list of FTP email servers, look at the Accessing the Internet by > E-mail FAQ posted to news.answers. If you don't have access to Usenet, you > can retrieve this FAQ one of the following ways: > > * Send mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with the body containing "send > usenet/news.answers/internet-services/access-via-email". > * Send mail to mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk with the body containing "send > lis-iis e-access-inet.txt". > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 12. I do not have access to Usenet. How do I post and receive news? > > To receive rec.games.corewar articles by email, join the COREWAR-L list run > on the Koth.Org list processor. To join, send the message > > SUB COREWAR-L FirstName LastName > > to listproc@koth.org. You can send mail to corewar-l@koth.org to post even > if you are not a member of the list. Responsible for the listserver is Scott > J. Ellentuch (ttsg@ttsg.com). > > Servers that allow you to post (but not receive) articles are available. > Refer to the Accessing the Internet by E-Mail FAQ for more information. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 13. Are there any Core War related WWW sites? > > You bet. Each of the two KotH sites sport a world-wide web server. > Stormking's Core War page is http://www.koth.org; pizza's is > http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~pizza/koth . Damien Doligez (a.k.a. Planar) > has a web page that features convenient access to regular newsletters (Push > Off, The '94 Warrior, Core Warrior) and a well organized library of > warriors: http://para.inria.fr/~doligez/corewar/. Convenient for U.S. users, > this site is also mirrored at koth.org. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 14. What is KotH? How do I enter? > > King Of The Hill (KotH) is an ongoing Core War tournament available to > anyone with email. You enter by submitting via email a Redcode program > (warrior) with special comment lines. You will receive a reply indicating > how well your program did against the current top programs "on the hill". > > There are two styles of KotH tournaments, "classical" and "multi-warrior". > The "classical" KotH is a one-on-one tournament, that is your warrior will > play 100 battles against each of the 20 other programs currently on the > Hill. You receive 3 points for each win and 1 point for each tie. (The > existing programs do not replay each other, but their previous battles are > recalled.) All scores are updated to reflect your battles and all 21 > programs are ranked from high to low. If you are number 21 you are pushed > off the Hill, if you are higher than 21 someone else is pushed off. > > In "multi-warrior" KotH, all warriors on the hill fight each other at the > same time. Score calculation is a bit more complex than for the one-on-one > tournament. Briefly, points are awarded based on how many warriors survive > until the end of a round. A warrior that survives by itself gets more points > than a warrior that survives together with other warriors. Points are > calculated from the formula (W*W-1)/S, where W is the total number of > warriors and S the number of surviving warriors. The pMARS documentation has > more information on multi-warrior scoring. > > The idea for an email-based Core War server came from David Lee. The > original KotH was developed and run by William Shubert at Intel starting in > 1991, and discontinued after almost three years of service. Currently, KotHs > based on Bill's UNIX scripts but offering a wider variety of hills are are > running at two sites: koth@koth.org is maintained by Scott J. Ellentuch > (tuc@ttsg.com) and pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu by Thomas H. Davies > (sd@ecst.csuchico.edu). Up until May '95, the two sites provided overlapping > services, i.e. the some of the hill types were offered by both "pizza" and > "stormking". To conserve resources, the different hill types are now divided > up among the sites. The way you submit warriors to both KotHs is pretty much > the same. Therefore, the entry rules described below apply to both "pizza" > and "stormking" unless otherwise noted. > > Entry Rules for King of the Hill Corewar > > * Write a corewar program. KotH is fully ICWS '88 compatible, EXCEPT that > a comma (",") is required between two arguments. > > * Put a line starting with ";redcode" (or ";redcode-94", etc., see below) > at the top of your program. This MUST be the first line. Anything > before it will be lost. If you wish to receive mail on every new > entrant, use ";redcode verbose". Otherwise you will only receive mail > if a challenger makes it onto the hill. Use ";redcode quiet" if you > wish to receive mail only when you get shoved off the hill. > > Additionally, adding ";name " and ";author " > will be helpful in the performance reports. Do NOT have a line > beginning with ";address" in your code; this will confuse the mail > daemon and you won't get mail back. Using ";name" is mandatory on the > Pizza hills. > > In addition, it would be nice if you have lines beginning with > ";strategy" that describe the algorithm you use. > > There are currently seven separate hills you can select by starting > your program with ;redcode-94, ;redcode-b, ;redcode-lp, ;redcode-x, > ;redcode, ;redcode-94x or ;redcode-94m. The former four run at "pizza", > the latter three at "stormking". More information on these hills is > listed below. > > * Mail this file to koth@koth.org or pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu. "Pizza" > requires a subject of "koth" (use the -s flag on most mailers). > > * Within a few minutes you should get mail back telling you whether your > program assembled correctly or not. If it did assemble correctly, sit > back and wait; if not, make the change required and re-submit. > > * In an hour or so you should get more mail telling you how your program > performed against the current top 20 (or 10) programs. If no news > arrives during that time, don't worry; entries are put in a queue and > run through the tournament one at a time. A backlog may develop. Be > patient. > > If your program makes it onto the hill, you will get mail every time a new > program makes it onto the hill. If this is too much mail, you can use > ";redcode[-??] quiet" when you first mail in your program; then you will > only get mail when you make it on the top 25 list or when you are knocked > off. Using ";redcode[-??] verbose" will give you even more mail; here you > get mail every time a new challenger arrives, even if they don't make it > onto the top 25 list. > > Often programmers want to try out slight variations in their programs. If > you already have a program named "foo V1.0" on the hill, adding the line > ";kill foo" to a new program will automatically bump foo 1.0 off the hill. > Just ";kill" will remove all of your programs when you submit the new one. > The server kills programs by assigning an impossibly low score; it may > therefore take another successful challenge before a killed program is > actually removed from the hill. > > Sample Entry > > ;redcode > ;name Dwarf > ;author A. K. Dewdney > ;strategy Throw DAT bombs around memory, hitting every 4th memory cell. > ;strategy This program was presented in the first Corewar article. > bomb DAT #0 > dwarf ADD #4, bomb > MOV bomb, @bomb > JMP dwarf > END dwarf ; Programs start at the first line unless > ; an "END start" pseudo-op appears to indicate > ; the first logical instruction. Also, nothing > ; after the END instruction will be assembled. > > Duration Max. > Hill Name Hill Core Max. Before Entry Min. Rounds Instr. > Size Size Processes Distance Fought Set > Tie Length > Pizza's ICWS '94 > Draft Hill Extended > (Accessed with 25 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 > ";redcode-94") Draft > Pizza's Beginner's Extended > Hill (Accessed 25 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 > with ";redcode-b") Draft > Pizza's > Experimental Extended > (Small) Hill 25 800 800 8000 20 20 200 ICWS '94 > (Accessed with Draft > ";redcode-x") > Pizza's Limited > Process (LP) Hill Extended > (Accessed with 25 8000 8 80000 200 200 200 ICWS '94 > ";redcode-lp") Draft > Stormking's ICWS > '88 Standard Hill > (Accessed with 20 8000 8000 80000 100 100 250 ICWS '88 > ";redcode") > Stormking's ICWS > '94 No Pspace Hill > (Accessed with 20 8000 8000 80000 100 100 250 ICWS '94 > ";redcode-94nop") > Stormking's ICWS > '94 Experimental Extended > (Big) Hill 20 55440 55440 500000 200 200 250 ICWS '94 > (Accessed with Draft > ";redcode-94x") > Stormking's ICWS > '94 Multi-Warrior Extended > Hill (Accessed 10 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 > with Draft > ";redcode-94m") > > Note: Warriors on the beginner's hill are retired at age 100. > > If you just want to get a status report without actually challenging the > hills, send email with ";status" as the message body (and don't forget > "Subject: koth" for "pizza"). If you send mail to "pizza" with "Subject: > koth help" you will receive instructions that may be more up to date than > those contained in this document. > > At "stormking", a message body with ";help" will return brief instructions. > If you submit code containing a ";test" line, your warrior will be assembled > but not actually pitted against the warriors on the hill. > > At "pizza", you can use ";redcode[-??] test" to do a test challenge of the > Hill without affecting the status of the Hill. These challenges can be used > to see how well your warrior does against the current Hill warriors. > > All hills run portable MARS (pMARS) version 0.8, a platform-independent Core > War system available at www.koth.org. > > The '94 and '94x hills allow five experimental opcodes and three > experimental addressing modes currently not covered in the ICWS'94 draft > document: > > * LDP - Load P-Space > * STP - Store P-Space > * SEQ - Skip if EQual (synonym for CMP) > * SNE - Skip if Not Equal > * NOP - (No OPeration) > > * * - indirect using A-field as pointer > * { - predecrement indirect using A-field > * } - postincrement indirect using A-field > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 15. Is it DAT 0, 0 or DAT #0, #0? How do I compare to core? > > Core is initialized to DAT 0, 0. This is an illegal instruction (in source > code) under ICWS'88 rules and strictly compliant assemblers (such as KotH or > pmars -8) will not let you have a DAT 0, 0 instruction in your source code - > only DAT #0, #0. So this begs the question, how to compare something to see > if it is empty core. The answer is, most likely the instruction before your > first instruction and the instruction after your last instruction are both > DAT 0, 0. You can use them, or any other likely unmodified instructions, for > comparison. Note that under ICWS'94, DAT 0, 0 is a legal instruction. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 16. How does SLT (Skip if Less Than) work? > > SLT gives some people trouble because of the way modular arithmetic works. > It is important to note that all negative numbers are converted to positive > numbers before a battles begins. Example: -1 becomes M-1 where M is the > memory size (core size). > > Once you realize that all numbers are treated as positive, it is clear what > is meant by "less than". It should also be clear that no number is less than > zero. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 17. What is the difference between in-register and in-memory evaluation? > > These terms refer to the way instruction operands are evaluated. The '88 > Redcode standard ICWS'88 is unclear about whether a simulator should > "buffer" the result of A-operand evaluation before the B-operand is > evaluated. Simulators that do buffer are said to use in-register evaluation, > those that don't, in-memory evaluation. ICWS'94 clears this confusion by > mandating in-register evaluation. Instructions that execute differently > under these two forms of evaluation are MOV, ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV and MOD > where the effective address of the A-operand is modified by evaluation of > the B-operand. This is best illustrated by an example: > > L1 mov L2, L2 dat #0, #1 > > Under in-register evaluation, the L2 instruction is saved in a buffer before > the L2 memory location is decremented by evaluation of the B-operand of L1. > The saved DAT #0,#1 instruction is then written to L2, leaving it unchanged. > > Under in-memory evaluation, the L2 instruction is not buffered and thus > decremented by evaluation of the B-operand. After execution of L1, L2 > changes to DAT #0,#0. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 18. What is P-space? > > P-space is an area of memory which only your program's processes can access. > The contents of each memory location are preserved between rounds in a > multi-round match. > > P-space is in many ways different from the core. First of all, each P-space > location can only store one number, not a whole instruction. Also, the > addressing in P-space is absolute, ie. the P-space address 1 is always 1 > regardless of where in the core the instruction containing it is. And last > but not least, P-space can only be accessed by two special instructions, LDP > and STP. > > The syntax of these two instructions is a bit unusual. STP, for example, has > an ordinary value in the core as its source, which is put into the P-space > field pointed to by the destination. So the P-space location isn't > determined by the destination address, but by its value, ie. the value that > would be overwritten if this were a MOV. So STP.AB #Q, #R would put the > value Q into the P-space field R mod PSPACESIZE. Similarly, > > stp.b 2, 3 > dat 0, 0 > dat 0, 9 > dat 0, 7 > > would put the value 9 into the P-space field 7. LDP works the same way, > except that now the source is a P-space field and the destination a core > instruction. The P-space location 0 is a special location. It is initialised > to a special value before each round. This value is: > > * -1 (or CORESIZE-1) at the beginning of the first round > * 0 if the program died in the previous round > * The number of surviving programs if the program did not die in the > previous round > > This means that for one-on-one matches, loss=0, win=1 and tie=2. > > The default size of P-space is 1/16 of the core size. This size is the value > of the predefined variable PSPACESIZE. The addresses in the P-space wrap > around just like in the core, ie. you can store a value from 0 to CORESIZE-1 > in each P-space location. All P-space values (except for location 0) are 0 > initially. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 19. What does "Missing ;assert .." in my message from KotH mean? > > This means you have omitted an ";assert" line in your submission. ";assert" > is used to specify which environments your code will work under or was > designed for. For example, if your warrior was written for the '94 draft > hill then you can put: > > ;assert CORESIZE==8000 > > in your code, meaning that an error will occur if you attempt you compile > the code for a different core size. If you don't want to use the features of > ";assert" and you want to get rid of the annoying warning just put: > > ;assert 1 > > in your code, which means it will compile unconditionally. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 20. How should I format my code? > > The way you format your code is really your own choice in the end. If you > are new to the game then use the style you feel most comfortable with. > However, using a common format helps others to understand your code quicker. > Most players tend to use the following conventions when writing code: > > * use lower case for location names and opcode names > * don't add opcode modifiers if you don't need to, eg. add.ab #1, #2 is > the same as add #1, #2 > * use whitespace after every comma > * use tabs to align the opcodes, the instruction field(s) and any > comments > * do not use $ (direct addressing mode) or : (suffix of some labels) > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 21. Are there any other Core War related resources I should know about? > > Using genetic algorithms to generate warriors has been attempted by a number > of people. There are a number of resources available for people who are > interested in doing some experimentation: > > * There is a Core War genetic algorithms mailing list at > corewar-ga-request@sunsite.auc.dk. The FTP site for this list is at > ftp://sunsite.auc.dk/pub/local/corewar/. The administrator is Martin > Pedersen (martin.pedersen@person.dk). > * Jason's Core War project page > (http://www.avalon.net/~jboer/projects/corewar/corewar.html) contains a > C program which can evolve warriors, along with some previously > generated warriors. > * Core Wars Genetics: The Evolution of Predation by John Perry can be > found at http://www.koth.org/evolving_warriors.html. > * The most recent paper on Core War evolution is by Ryan Coleman and can > be found at > http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/6898/paper.html. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 22. What does (expression or term of your choice) mean? > > Here is a selected glossary of terms. If you have a definition and/or term > you wish to see here, please send it to me. > > (References to an X-like program mean that the term X is derived from the > specific program X and has become a generic term). > > Binary launch > One of several means to start an imp-spiral running. The fastest launch > technique, but requires the most code. See also JMP/ADD Launch and > Vector Launch. > > impsize equ 2667 > example spl 4 ; extend by adding spl 8, spl 16, etc. > spl 2 > jmp imp+(0*impsize) ; jmp's execute in order > jmp imp+(1*impsize) > spl 2 > jmp imp+(2*impsize) > jmp imp+(3*impsize) > imp mov 0, impsize ; in '94 use -> mov.i #0, impsize > > Bootstrapping > Strategy of copying the active portion of the program away from the > initial location, leaving a decoy behind and making the relocated > program as small as possible. > > B-Scanners > Scanners which only recognize non-zero B-fields. > > example add #10, scan > scan jmz example, 10 > > c > Measure of speed, equal to one location per cycle. Speed of light. > > CMP-Scanner > A Scanner which uses a CMP instruction to look for opponents. > > example add step, scan > scan cmp 10, 30 > jmp attack > jmp example > step dat #20, #20 > > Colour > Property of bombs making them visible to scanners, causing them to > attack useless locations, thus slowing them down. > > example dat #100 > > Core-Clear > Code that sequentially overwrites core with DAT instructions; usually > the last part of a program. > > Decoys > Bogus or unused instructions meant to slow down scanners. Typically, > DATs with non-zero B-fields. > > Decrement Resistant > Property of warriors making them functional (or at least partially > functional) when overrun by a DJN-stream. > > DJN-Stream (also DJN-Train) > Using a DJN command to rapidly decrement core locations. > > example ... > ... > djn example, <4000 > > Dwarf > The prototypical small bomber. > > Gate-busting (also gate-crashing) > technique to "interweave" a decrement-resistant imp-spiral (e.g. MOV 0, > 2668) with a standard one to overrun imp-gates. > > Hybrids > warriors that combine two or more of the basic strategies, either in > sequence (e.g. stone->paper) or in parallel (e.g. imp/stone). > > Imp > Program which only uses the MOV instruction. > > example mov 0, 1 > > or > > example mov 0, 2 > mov 0, 2 > > Imp-Gate > A location in core which is bombed or decremented continuously so that > an Imp can not pass. Also used to describe the program-code which > maintains the gate. > > example ... > ... > spl 0, dat > Imp-Ring > A minimal Imp-Spiral. > > D EQU (CORESIZE+1)/3 > a mov 0, D ; copy self to b > b mov 0, D ; copy self to c > c mov 0, D ; copy self to a+1 > > Imp-Spiral > An Imp-like program with two or more processes supporting each other. A > three-point spiral, with six processes running in this sequence: > > D EQU (CORESIZE+1)/3 > a mov 0, D ; copy self to b > b mov 0, D ; copy self to c > c mov 0, D ; copy self to a+1 > a+1 mov 0, D ; copy self to b+1 > b+1 mov 0, D ; copy self to c+1 > c+1 mov 0, D ; copy self to a+2 > > Incendiary Bomb > A type of Stun bomb which creates a SPL 0 carpet. > > example spl 0, 8 > mov -1, <-1 > > JMP/ADD Launch > one of several means to start an imp-spiral running. The slowest launch > technique, but requires the least code. See also Binary Launch and > Vector Launch. > > IMPSIZE EQU 2667 > example spl 1 ; extend by adding more spl 1's > spl 1 > spl 2 > jmp @0, imp > add #IMPSIZE, -1 ; bump address by impsize after each jmp > dat #0, #0 ; excess processes must die! > imp mov 0, IMPSIZE ; in '94 use -> mov.i #0,IMPSIZE > > Mirror > see reflection. > > On-axis/off-axis > On-axis scanners compare two locations M/2 apart, where M is the memory > size. Off-axis scanners use some other separation. > > Optimal Constants > (also optima-type constants) Bomb or scan increments chosen to cover > core most effectively, i.e. leaving gaps of uniform size. Programs to > calculate optimal constants and lists of optimal numbers are available > at www.koth.org. > > Paper > A Paper-like program is one which replicates itself many times. Part of > the Scissors (beats) Paper (beats) Stone (beats Scissors) analogy. > > P-Warrior > A warrior which uses the results of previous round(s) in order to > determine which strategy it will use. > > Pit-Trapper > (also Slaver, Vampire). A program which enslaves another. Usually > accomplished by bombing with JMPs to a SPL 0 pit with an optional > core-clear routine. > > Q^2 Scan > A modern version of the Quick Scan where anything found is attacked > almost immediately. > > Quick Scan > 2c scan of a set group of core locations with bombing if anything is > found. Both of the following codes snips scan 16 locations and check > for a find. If anything is found, it is attacked, otherwise 16 more > locations are scanned. > > Example: > > start > s1 for 8 ;'88 scan > cmp start+100*s1, start+100*s1+4000 ;check two locations > mov #start+100*s1-found, found ;they differ so set pointer > rof > jmn attack, found ;if we have something, get it > s2 for 8 > cmp start+100*(s2+6), start+100*(s2+6)+4000 > mov #start+100*(s2+6)-found, found > rof > found jmz moveme, #0 ;skip attack if qscan found nothing > attack cmp @found, start-1 ;does found points to empty space? > add #4000, found ;no, so point to correct location > mov start-1, @found ;move a bomb > moveme jmp 0, 0 > > In ICWS'94, the quick scan code is more compact because of the SNE > opcode: > > start ;'94 scan > s1 for 4 > sne start+400*s1, start+400*s1+100 ;check two locations > seq start+400*s1+200, start+400*s1+300 ;check two locations > mov #start+400*s1-found, found ;they differ so set pointer > rof > jmn which, found ;if we have something, get it > s2 for 4 > sne start+400*(s2+4), start+400*(s2+4)+100 > seq start+400*(s2+4)+200, start+400*(s2+4)+300 > mov #start+400*(s2+4)-found-100, found > rof > found jmz moveme, #0 ;skip attack if qscan found nothing > add #100, -1 ;increment pointer till we get the > which jmn -1, @found ;right place > mov start-1, @found ;move a bomb > moveme jmp 0, 0 > > Reflection > Copy of a program or program part, positioned to make the active > program invisible to a CMP-scanner. > > Replicator > Generic for Paper. A program which makes many copies of itself, each > copy also making copies. > > Self-Splitting > Strategy of amplifying the number of processes executing a piece of > code. > > example spl 0 > loop add #10, example > mov example, @example > jmp loop > > Scanner > A program which searches through core for an opponent rather than > bombing blindly. > > Scissors > A program designed to beat replicators, usually a (B-field scanning) > vampire. Part of the Paper-Scissors-Stone analogy. > > Self-Repair > Ability of a program to fix it's own code after attack. > > Silk > A replicator which splits off a process to each new copy before > actually copying the code. This allows it to replicate extremely > quickly. This technique is only possible under the '94 draft, because > it requires post-increment indirect addressing. Example: > > spl 1 > mov -1, 0 > spl 1 ;generate 6 consecutive processes > silk spl 3620, #0 ;split to new copy > mov >-1, }-1 ;copy self to new location > mov bomb, >2000 ;linear bombing > mov bomb, }2042 ;A-indirect bombing for anti-vamp > jmp silk, {silk ;reset source pointer, make new copy > bomb dat >2667, >5334 ;anti-imp bomb > > Slaver > see Pit-Trapper. > > Stealth > Property of programs, or program parts, which are invisible to > scanners, accomplished by using zero B-fields and reflections. > > Stone > A Stone-like program designed to be a small bomber. Part of the > Paper-Scissors-Stone analogy. > > Stun > A type of bomb which makes the opponent multiply useless processes, > thus slowing it down. Example is referred to as a SPL-JMP bomb. > > example spl 0 > jmp -1 > > Two-Pass Core-Clear (also SPL/DAT Core-Clear) > core clear that fills core first with SPL instructions, then with DATs. > This is very effective in killing paper and certain imp-spiral > variations. > > Vampire > see Pit-Trapper. > > Vector Launch > one of several means to start an imp-spiral running. As fast as Binary > Launch, but requiring much less code. See also JMP/ADD Launch and > Binary Launch. This example is one form of a Vector Launch: > > sz EQU 2667 > > spl 1 > spl 1 > jmp @vt, }0 > vt dat #0, imp+0*sz ; start of vector table > dat #0, imp+1*sz > dat #0, imp+2*sz > dat #0, imp+3*sz ; end of vector table > imp mov.i #0, sz > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > 23. Other questions? > > Just ask in the rec.games.corewar newsgroup or contact me. If you are shy, > check out the Core War archives first to see if your question has been > answered before. > > [ToC] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Credits > > Additions, corrections, etc. to this document are solicited. Thanks in > particular to the following people who have contributed major portions of > this document: > > * Mark Durham (wrote the original version of the FAQ) > * Paul Kline > * Randy Graham > * Stefan Strack (maintained a recent version of the FAQ) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Copyright © 1999 Anton Marsden. > > Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted in any > medium, provided this notice is preserved. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 16:57:01 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDv1A23953 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:57:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDuxV21806 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:56:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA27207; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9pq72f$pv0$1@news.hccnet.nl> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: Re.AL@hccnet.nl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "ReAL" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: What people want... X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: I think that most people what to see more (like program a robot and then let it fight in 3d or 2d) This way they can really see how "cool" there program is and what to change Matthijs From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 16:58:26 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDwQA25436 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:58:26 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EDwPZ23809 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:58:25 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA27246; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: foehg@max.localdomain Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ransom Smith To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: What people want... X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: In article <9pq72f$pv0$1@news.hccnet.nl>, ReAL wrote: > I think that most people what to see more (like program a robot and then let > it fight in 3d or 2d) > This way they can really see how "cool" there program is and what to change > > Matthijs There are other things for that. We provide something different, for those who don't want 3d-2d pretty-wow junk. Too much of that out there already. -- [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] No, I don't Yahoo. --**([{ LIFE IS FAIR. --**-- LIVE WITH IT. }])**-- From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 17:00:39 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE0dA25888 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:00:39 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE0bV21927 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:00:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA27333; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109240400.AAA27964@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 09/24/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/24/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Sep 20 23:35:19 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 34/ 22/ 45 Inky Ian Oversby 145 153 2 41/ 40/ 18 Hazy Lazy ... Steve Gunnell 143 16 3 30/ 18/ 52 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 142 674 4 31/ 21/ 49 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 141 263 5 41/ 41/ 19 Behemot Michal Janeczek 140 497 6 32/ 25/ 43 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 140 436 7 43/ 48/ 8 He Scans Alone x P.Kline 138 2 8 34/ 30/ 36 Blacken Ian Oversby 137 921 9 31/ 26/ 43 Revival Fire P.Kline 135 142 10 30/ 25/ 45 Olivia Ben Ford 134 402 11 36/ 38/ 26 test bb0 mj 133 1 12 29/ 27/ 43 Uninvited John Metcalf 132 356 13 28/ 24/ 48 Qtest Christian Schmidt 131 196 14 32/ 34/ 34 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 130 375 15 37/ 44/ 19 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 129 631 16 28/ 26/ 46 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 129 97 17 20/ 12/ 67 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 128 374 18 25/ 22/ 53 SMMJ 2.7 Robert Macrae 128 8 19 36/ 45/ 18 Jinx Christian Schmidt 128 637 20 25/ 24/ 51 Vain Ian Oversby 127 139 21 17/ 63/ 20 Test N Brant D. Thomsen 72 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 17:02:03 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE23A25968 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:02:03 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE21V21986 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:02:01 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27411; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109240400.AAA27956@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 09/24/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/24/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sat Sep 8 07:01:14 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 test John Metcalf 29 12 2 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 23 23 3 QuiVa John Metcalf 20 177 4 8thTest Gino Oblena 20 15 5 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 15 84 6 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 15 40 7 fclear Brian Haskin 14 68 8 Her Majesty P.Kline 13 103 9 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 9 2 10 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 7 1 11 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 2 9 From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 17:03:30 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE3UA24072 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:03:30 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE3SV22026 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:03:28 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27461; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109170400.AAA24659@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 09/17/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/17/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Thu Sep 13 16:38:30 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 36/ 20/ 45 Freight Train David Moore 152 77 2 35/ 20/ 45 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 149 34 3 34/ 20/ 46 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 148 16 4 33/ 21/ 47 Guardian Ian Oversby 144 76 5 39/ 38/ 23 Stasis David Moore 141 184 6 42/ 43/ 15 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 140 73 7 38/ 35/ 27 PacMan David Moore 140 106 8 40/ 44/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 137 114 9 26/ 16/ 58 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 137 90 10 33/ 30/ 37 Frog Sticker P.Kline 137 26 11 29/ 22/ 49 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 135 32 12 27/ 19/ 54 Jinglo John Metcalf 135 1 13 36/ 37/ 27 Tangle Trap David Moore 135 150 14 38/ 40/ 22 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 135 352 15 27/ 19/ 54 Test I Ian Oversby 134 133 16 39/ 45/ 16 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 133 402 17 27/ 20/ 53 Evoltmp 88 John K W 133 127 18 39/ 46/ 14 ig Wayne Sheppard 132 4 19 35/ 38/ 28 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 132 17 20 17/ 3/ 80 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 130 5 21 0/ 93/ 7 Cecile Xavier Nayrac 7 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 17:04:55 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE4tA11337 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:04:55 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE4sZ22975 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:04:54 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27510; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109170400.AAA24663@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 09/17/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/17/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sat Sep 8 07:01:14 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 test John Metcalf 29 12 2 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 23 23 3 QuiVa John Metcalf 20 177 4 8thTest Gino Oblena 20 15 5 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 15 84 6 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 15 40 7 fclear Brian Haskin 14 68 8 Her Majesty P.Kline 13 103 9 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 9 2 10 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 7 1 11 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 2 9 From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 17:06:18 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE6IA26811 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:06:18 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE6GV22114 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:06:16 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27561; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109170400.AAA24671@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 09/17/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/17/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Sep 13 16:42:20 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 41/ 41/ 18 Hazy Lazy ... Steve Gunnell 141 16 2 31/ 21/ 48 Inky Ian Oversby 140 153 3 43/ 49/ 8 He Scans Alone x P.Kline 137 2 4 27/ 17/ 56 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 137 674 5 39/ 42/ 20 Behemot Michal Janeczek 136 497 6 28/ 20/ 52 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 135 263 7 32/ 30/ 38 Blacken Ian Oversby 134 921 8 29/ 25/ 47 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 133 436 9 34/ 39/ 27 test bb0 mj 130 1 10 28/ 26/ 47 Revival Fire P.Kline 130 142 11 37/ 44/ 19 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 130 631 12 31/ 34/ 35 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 129 375 13 27/ 25/ 49 Olivia Ben Ford 128 402 14 36/ 45/ 19 Jinx Christian Schmidt 127 637 15 25/ 24/ 51 Qtest Christian Schmidt 126 196 16 26/ 27/ 47 Uninvited John Metcalf 125 356 17 18/ 12/ 70 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 123 374 18 23/ 23/ 54 Vain Ian Oversby 123 139 19 25/ 26/ 49 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 123 97 20 22/ 21/ 57 SMMJ 2.7 Robert Macrae 123 8 21 14/ 19/ 68 SMMJ 4.4 Robert Macrae 108 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 17:07:45 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE7jA24875 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:07:45 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE7gZ26343 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:07:43 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27622; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:06:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:06:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200109170400.AAA24667@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 09/17/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Weekly Status on 09/17/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sat Sep 8 06:54:38 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 19/ 47 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 148 31 2 39/ 34/ 27 Black Moods Ian Oversby 145 95 3 41/ 41/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 141 59 4 36/ 34/ 30 Ogre Christian Schmidt 138 47 5 26/ 16/ 59 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 136 39 6 32/ 30/ 39 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 133 28 7 17/ 7/ 76 Denial David Moore 128 40 8 26/ 24/ 51 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 128 38 9 29/ 33/ 37 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 126 99 10 15/ 7/ 78 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 124 168 11 18/ 13/ 69 Kin John Metcalf 123 7 12 13/ 4/ 82 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 122 116 13 14/ 7/ 79 Black Box v1.1 JKW 121 62 14 27/ 33/ 39 test CS 121 56 15 19/ 19/ 63 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 119 121 16 31/ 45/ 24 Pagan John K W 118 153 17 28/ 43/ 29 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 114 5 18 14/ 20/ 66 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 109 120 19 17/ 26/ 57 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 108 26 20 14/ 21/ 64 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 107 1 21 11/ 23/ 66 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 99 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 17:09:10 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE9AA19456 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:09:10 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EE99Z02100 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:09:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27675; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200110080400.AAA22189@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 10/08/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/08/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Oct 7 17:53:28 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 45/ 48/ 7 He Scans Alone x P.Kline 143 21 2 30/ 19/ 50 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 142 282 3 31/ 21/ 48 Inky Ian Oversby 140 172 4 40/ 43/ 17 Hazy Lazy ... Steve Gunnell 137 35 5 29/ 23/ 48 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 136 455 6 27/ 18/ 56 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 136 693 7 29/ 23/ 48 Olivia Ben Ford 135 421 8 31/ 29/ 40 Blacken Ian Oversby 133 940 9 37/ 43/ 19 Behemot Michal Janeczek 131 516 10 28/ 25/ 47 Revival Fire P.Kline 131 161 11 40/ 50/ 10 Test S M1 None 131 19 12 28/ 26/ 47 Uninvited John Metcalf 130 375 13 26/ 24/ 50 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 127 116 14 25/ 24/ 51 Qtest Christian Schmidt 126 215 15 35/ 45/ 20 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 125 650 16 30/ 36/ 34 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 124 394 17 35/ 47/ 18 Jinx Christian Schmidt 123 656 18 19/ 14/ 67 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 123 393 19 19/ 19/ 62 Mr Rusty q1 John Metcalf 119 2 20 17/ 18/ 64 Mr Sheen Test B 5 Steve Gunnell 116 1 21 0/ 0/ 5 Mr Sheen Test B 4 Steve Gunnell 5 16 From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 14 17:10:39 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EEAcA27471 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:10:38 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EEAbV22316 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:10:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA27718; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200110010400.AAA06300@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 10/01/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/01/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Fri Sep 28 04:54:06 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 test John Metcalf 43 12 2 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 43 84 3 fclear Brian Haskin 42 68 4 8thTest Gino Oblena 33 15 5 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 28 40 6 QuiVa John Metcalf 22 177 7 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 21 1 8 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 20 23 9 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 17 2 10 Her Majesty P.Kline 14 103 11 MultiRed-1 Evo-R Roy van Rijn ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:31:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9EIV7Z16823 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:31:07 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA29682; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BC9D08C.165C9660@golder.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: wolfgang@golder.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Wolfgang Golder To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: CoreWars for EPOC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hi, does anybody know if CoreWars is available for Psion PDA's? Any hints appreciated. Regards Wolfgang From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 15 07:21:41 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9F4LeA12228 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:21:40 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9F4LeZ04276 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:21:40 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA03611; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200110150400.AAA24814@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 10/15/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/15/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Oct 11 06:02:06 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 45/ 47/ 8 He Scans Alone x P.Kline 142 23 2 30/ 19/ 51 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 140 284 3 30/ 21/ 49 Inky Ian Oversby 140 174 4 29/ 22/ 49 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 136 457 5 27/ 17/ 56 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 136 695 6 39/ 44/ 17 Hazy Lazy ... Steve Gunnell 135 37 7 28/ 23/ 49 Olivia Ben Ford 134 423 8 37/ 43/ 20 Behemot Michal Janeczek 132 518 9 31/ 30/ 40 Blacken Ian Oversby 132 942 10 28/ 25/ 48 Revival Fire P.Kline 131 163 11 40/ 50/ 10 Test S M1 None 130 21 12 27/ 25/ 47 Uninvited John Metcalf 129 377 13 26/ 24/ 51 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 127 118 14 25/ 24/ 51 Qtest Christian Schmidt 127 217 15 35/ 46/ 20 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 124 652 16 29/ 36/ 35 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 122 396 17 35/ 47/ 18 Jinx Christian Schmidt 122 658 18 18/ 14/ 68 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 122 395 19 19/ 19/ 62 Mr Rusty q1 John Metcalf 119 4 20 17/ 15/ 68 Mr Sheen Test B 7 Steve Gunnell 119 1 21 0/ 0/ 5 Mr Sheen Test B 6 Steve Gunnell 5 2 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 15 07:22:01 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9F4M1A17780 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:22:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9F4M0Z06036 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:22:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA03639; Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200110150400.AAA24802@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 10/15/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/15/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Fri Oct 12 08:36:08 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 19/ 48 Freight Train David Moore 147 78 2 33/ 20/ 47 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 145 35 3 31/ 19/ 50 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 144 17 4 30/ 20/ 50 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 77 5 35/ 34/ 30 PacMan David Moore 136 107 6 22/ 8/ 70 qenig1 test John Metcalf 136 1 7 38/ 45/ 16 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 131 74 8 24/ 18/ 57 Jinglo John Metcalf 131 2 9 26/ 22/ 52 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 131 33 10 33/ 36/ 30 Tangle Trap David Moore 130 151 11 23/ 16/ 61 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 130 91 12 35/ 40/ 26 Stasis David Moore 129 185 13 24/ 19/ 56 Evoltmp 88 John K W 129 128 14 24/ 18/ 58 Test I Ian Oversby 129 134 15 37/ 45/ 18 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 129 115 16 29/ 30/ 41 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 27 17 13/ 3/ 84 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 124 6 18 33/ 43/ 23 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 123 353 19 34/ 49/ 17 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 120 403 20 34/ 50/ 16 ig Wayne Sheppard 118 5 21 19/ 59/ 21 newDwarf baldman 79 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 19 00:32:17 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9ILWG628575 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:32:16 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9ILWEV06828 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 00:32:15 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA12104; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 17:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9qne5j$rgi$2383@neptunium.btinternet.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: gemfim@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: gemfim@yahoo.com To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: The Adult Top List Email Group 3808 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Introducing The Adult Top List Email Group Finding it hard to find all those great free adult sites that are out there? or you want secret backdoors to premium sites? the adult top list is for you. The Adult Top List Email-Group email's out a weekly digest of all the best free adult sites to visit. (the digest is only ever sent once a week and you will recieve no other email & unlike alot of others the unsubscribe works!) send a blank email with "subscribe" in the subject line. to adlstlists@hotmail.com From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 19 04:33:02 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9J1X2618814 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 04:33:02 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9J1X0V13741 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2001 04:33:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA13661; Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 21:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2lGrNppGj$p6Up7.61650@news.dplanet.ch> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: lyfkira@NOHDITIB.NE.US Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Marla O. Wilkinson-von Hacklheber" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Do not dream the candles partly, open them badly. X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Lots of light tired sauces will weekly eat the cans. He'll be improving to closed Alfred until his hen fills unbelievably. Just laughing through a goldsmith against the cave is too abysmal for Norman to jump it. Will you waste in the lane, if Junior familiarly shouts the bucket? For Nydia ache's fresh, behind me it's cosmetic, whereas behind you it's hating long. Why does Estefana arrive so quickly, whenever Maify cleans the thin smog very stupidly? We join the sweet film. The egg throughout the cold monolith is the fork that dyes compleatly. I was burning to talk you some of my stale carpenters. Paul opens once, lifts mercilessly, then walks on the shopkeeper under the street. 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Robbie wants to grasp strongly, unless Cathy departs coconuts in back of Patrice's fig. Sometimes, bushs care for younger earths, unless they're think. My solid pitcher won't wander before I solve it. While farmers superbly judge barbers, the balls often attempt below the clever potters. There Jason will comb the shoe, and if Jimmie cruelly nibbles it too, the lentil will explain outside the polite ocean. Are you wet, I mean, recommending around angry gardners? Plenty of oranges weekly order the difficult shower. Never excuse sneakily while you're expecting within a unique dust. Liz moves, then Alexis crudely learns a kind disk towards Roxanne's window. Where doesn't Michael like truly? Never pour the twigs annually, dine them tamely. Hardly any butchers will be worthwhile clean desks. They are pulling in the field now, won't measure cars later. It's very dirty today, I'll cover grudgingly or Jezebel will attack the jackets. Sometimes, go kick a carrot! 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From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 20 18:57:32 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9KFvSU23260 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:57:28 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9KE0uV01031 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:00:57 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00574; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: adamow@if.pw.edu.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Lukasz Adamowski To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Did I miss something? ;) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Hi, guys! Boy, a lot of post have come, when I was off-line. I see there was an discussion about making Redcode more attractive for newbies. I agree with those who suggest reducing the number of instructions. In my opinion some mathematical ones are used very rarely and can be removed: MUL, DIV, MOD, even ADD, which can be replaced by SUB (Why not remove SUB and use only ADD? - you ask. Because SUB is very useful in scanners which scan in both directions.) Also CMP is useless since there is SEQ/SNE pair. And I personally don't use SLT and NOP, but maybe you do. For some newbies DJN can be hard to understand well, but I know how useful it can be in DJN-streams. About addressing modes and modifiers - I wouldn't change anything. I may seem very difficult to learn all of them, but it's no neccesary. You can play knowing just the basics. Well, that's about Redcode. As for GUI: I think it's better to make separated windows for core, zoom-in, controls, statistics, editor etc. and let the user decide which of them he want to see and how. Of course, there may be some default prefered settings. O, yes! Hotkeying of course has to be. However I have my own hill, I don't have any opinion about making new ones with another, better rules. I just play where I can. Something like ranks of players (I repeat: _players_ - I mean persons who play in CW, not _warriors_ which I mean programs written by players) is a good idea. And now for something completely different: Let me introduce to you my newest idea - The Great Mutato (actually it's not the best name for such kind of warrior, but I couldn't think up anything else; if you can, let me know :) It's a paper which is changing into stone after making a copy of itself. The same loop is used for copying and droping bombs. Looks nice, I think. What a pity it doesn't fight so nice. ;redcode ;name Mutato ;author Lukasz Adamowski ;strategy paper/stone ;assert CORESIZE==8000 start add #5, $0 mov <-1, {3 jmn $-1, $-2 spl {-1, {-2 jmp $1033, >-4 end start ; Lukasz From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 20 21:32:51 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9KIWnU29512 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:32:49 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9KIWmV07312 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 21:32:48 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA02202; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9qscvo$61i$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mmoulton@vt.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Michael S. Moulton" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Did I miss something? ;) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ANSI_X3.4-1968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: In article , "Lukasz Adamowski" wrote: > Boy, a lot of post have come, when I was off-line. I see there was an > discussion about making Redcode more attractive for newbies. I agree > with those who suggest reducing the number of instructions. In my > opinion some mathematical ones are used very rarely and can be removed: > MUL, DIV, MOD, even ADD, which can be replaced by SUB (Why not remove > SUB and use only ADD? - you ask. Because SUB is very useful in scanners > which scan in both directions.) Also CMP is useless since there is > SEQ/SNE pair. And I personally don't use SLT and NOP, but maybe you do. > For some newbies DJN can be hard to understand well, but I know how > useful it can be in DJN-streams. About addressing modes and modifiers - > I wouldn't change anything. I may seem very difficult to learn all of > them, but it's no neccesary. You can play knowing just the basics. Well, > that's about Redcode. > As for GUI: I think it's better to make separated windows for core, > zoom-in, controls, statistics, editor etc. and let the user decide which > of them he want to see and how. Of course, there may be some default > prefered settings. O, yes! Hotkeying of course has to be. However I have > my own hill, I don't have any opinion about making new ones with > another, better rules. I just play where I can. Something like ranks of > players (I repeat: _players_ - I mean persons who play in CW, not > _warriors_ which I mean programs written by players) is a good idea. I just joined the newsgroup, so I also missed the discussion about making Redcode more attractive to newbies. I don't agree with removing instructions though. A better way, IMO, would be to write a better series of tutorials which introduce instructions in small groups. Rather than limiting Redcode's instruction set, limit the instructions that newbies learn right away... this has the same effect for newbies (the more confusing instructions aren't there), but it leaves them for people who are using them, and for newbies to learn more about as they gain experience. From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 21 16:42:13 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9LDgCW28805 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:42:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9LDgAV28672 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 16:42:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA10166; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 09:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Did I miss something? ;) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: O X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org] On Behalf Of Michael > S. Moulton > Sent: 20 octobre, 2001 14:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: Did I miss something? ;) > > > In article , > "Lukasz Adamowski" wrote: Welcome back! > > Boy, a lot of post have come, when I was off-line. I see there was an > > discussion about making Redcode more attractive for newbies. I agree > > with those who suggest reducing the number of instructions. In my > > opinion some mathematical ones are used very rarely and can be removed: > > MUL, DIV, MOD, even ADD, which can be replaced by SUB (Why not remove > > SUB and use only ADD? - you ask. Because SUB is very useful in scanners > > which scan in both directions.) Also CMP is useless since there is > > SEQ/SNE pair. And I personally don't use SLT and NOP, but maybe you do. > > For some newbies DJN can be hard to understand well, but I know how > > useful it can be in DJN-streams. About addressing modes and modifiers - > > I wouldn't change anything. I may seem very difficult to learn all of > > them, but it's no neccesary. You can play knowing just the basics. Well, > > that's about Redcode. [snip] > I just joined the newsgroup, so I also missed the discussion about making > Redcode more attractive to newbies. I don't agree with removing > instructions though. A better way, IMO, would be to write a better > series of tutorials which introduce instructions in small groups. Rather > than limiting Redcode's instruction set, limit the instructions that > newbies learn right away... this has the same effect for newbies (the > more confusing instructions aren't there), but it leaves them for people > who are using them, and for newbies to learn more about as they gain > experience. Agreed with that. Thing is, who here wants to write a tutorial? If only school wasn't such a soporiphic, i guess i would have tried continuing on my stuff, but... Anyway, here's a plan of what the thing could look like: 0 : Introduce pMARS. Example:Imp.(mov 0,1) 1 : The core's concept. #(no talk about #x = $0), $, @, *, MOV, arithmetic opcodes, JMP(no modifier). Example:Basic stone. 2 : <,>,{,}, Modifiers for the previous instructions. Example: Coreclear/better stone/basic tornado(? it's getting old for me 8) engine. 3 : SNE,SEQ,JMN,JMZ, the modifiers. Example:Scanners(F-Scan and CMP) 4 : SPL, SLT, p-space. Example: paper?(show an evolution, form old paper to silk)...simple handshake? 5 : Self Modifying Code! The BEAUTY of small programs ^_^ Maybe the extrememly small stone by Kline. 6 : Imp spiral, QScan, p-switch. 7 : Reading the metagame... OK, that's a word that most of you probably don't know. Applied to CW, it would be checking the hill to know what warrior to submit. FE, an imp killing paper when the field is either Paper or imp/stones. 8-~12 : I'm sure i missed some stuff. 8) Probably some "history" stuff, like the 94m hill, evolution of QScans, imps, other important warriors, etc. More theoretical stuff like optimal step numbers... A part could probably look like: 1-2 pg [subject, theory, etc] ½-¾ pg [examples, really short and to the point to explain the thing] ¼-½ pg ["exercises", to better understand the subject..Only a FEW] ½-1 pg ["Real-Life" example(s) using what was seen in the current part, with step by stepline by line explanations] Any suggestion to improve the plan? A certain episode is too big and should be cut in half, etc? Paul KHUONG(not KLINE) BTW, any newbie should jsut post here instead of wating for any tutorial for the mo. It'll be clearer and quicker 8) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). 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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 21 22:36:40 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9LJacW21948 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:36:38 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9LJabV09834 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:36:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA12411; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 15:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9qv320$lvg$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mmoulton@vt.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Michael S. Moulton" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: How active is Corewar? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ANSI_X3.4-1968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Obviously the hills are busy, but how active is Corewar really? It's surprising to me that the newest pMARS is still 0.8.0... it was that way when I first looked at Corewar about 2 years ago. There are other projects out there (corewars.sourceforge.net seems to have its own hills, even-- anyone know anything about this?) but most of the information available is from 1999 or earlier. From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 22 00:31:07 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9LLV6W30325 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:31:06 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9LLV5V13352 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 00:31:05 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA13114; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <20011021160442.12681.00000614@mb-fz.aol.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: quicktransit@aol.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: quicktransit@aol.com (QuickTransit) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Did I miss something? ;) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I used to play Corewar years ago. In fact, Redcode was the first programming language I ever learned. I gave up on the game because a number of factors have pushed it into what I view as a boring and sterile dead end, which MAJORLY restrict the amount of interest it can get from new players. Specifically: - Hyper-efficiency. There are two parts to this. Yes, writing a beautifully elegant little set of instructions that does twice what it should by right be able to do is a key part of what makes Corewar fun and a key part of writing good warriors. What is NOT fun is writing real programs to figure out optimal bombing numbers - one of the things that convinced me to leave was when I noticed people were writing REAL programs to figure out these optimal numbers. Corewar is a game. You shouldn't have to do that in order to be competitive. In addition, the general efficiency and state of the art of warrior-making have brought the competitive programs to an evolutionary dead end; there are certain strategies that are absolutely the best, everything else has been tried, the only thing that remains is to decide on the details of the implementation. This is never going to be fun for more than a small group of people who already "own" the game. - Deterministic stupidity. There is NO room for the warriors to exhibit any kind of behavior other than blind murderous all-out killing sprees - no interesting tactics, no adaptation to the enemy's behavior. At most, there may be one changeover in behavior, from replication to bombing for instance, but there is no subtlety (except, perhaps, from an implementation standpoint) in how it's done. - Limited tactics. This arises from the previous two points. The only legitimate strategies are massive replication, massive bombing, random spot checks of the core followed by massive bombing on anything found, or bastardized combinations of these. (Are imprings still competitive?) I remember back when the first KotH started up, there were all sorts of wildy different tactics and behaviors being tried; I even remember when the first CMP-scanner showed up, as well as the first imp-ring. Those were fun days. Discovering a fundamentally new way of organizing the code to do something completely unexpected and more effective than anything that had come before was fun in a way that picking bombing numbers and reorganizing the stone/paper components of a warrior can never be. This potential for discovery and wildly different strategies has to be brought back in order for the game to go anywhere beyond its current holding pattern, which in turn means that the basis for the total efficiency of modern warriors has to be fundamentally re-engineered. "So what," as Lenin said, "is to be done?" The ease of achieving a lethal and efficient killer is the #1 problem with giving the game real dimensions. Therefore, the aspects of the game that make it easy to code efficient warriors need to be removed. This goes in direct contradiction to much of the work that has been done on this game. P-space, the .x thingies you append to the operands (forgot the name, sorry), the multitude of new instructions that let you condense several lines of code into one - all of these have been steps in the wrong direction, because they make it easier to code a tougher warrior with fewer lines, thus pushing the optimum closer and closer to the unfun lethal-killer paradigm. In other words, what needs to be done is first and foremost to go straight back to the 1988 standard (imperfect as it was), tossing out all the "ease-of-use" stuff that's been added since then, and then further modify it to make it MORE difficult to write efficient Redcode. Writing a warrior is a challenge in two entirely different areas: in designing a warrior that will fight well, and in writing artistically efficient and powerful code. One of these areas has been completely neglected, because it has been made EASY. There are other things I think should be done - instant access to any area of core at any time is something that has always bugged me, although it can be worked around; also, it is simply too easy to kill another process (another efficiency problem) - but making the act of coding itself a non-trivial task, and forcing warriors to lose the tremendous efficiency they currently demonstrate, goes a long way towards making warrior-writing an interesting challenge and towards opening up new ways of doing things. Obviously with any new set of rules there will always be one path that is more efficient than another. This is not avoidable. What IS avoidable is making the magnitude of the advantage gained by using that one path so great as to make any other path hopeless. Basically, the advantages gained by writing efficient and lethal code should be able to be counterbalanced by writing robust and responsive code, or unpredictable code, or code that is equally lethal in an entirely different fashion. Do that, and Corewar will go places. Otherwise ... it won't. From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 22 01:31:00 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9LMV0W01420 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:31:00 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9LMUxV19918 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:30:59 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA13486; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:29:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:29:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9qveat$82n$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mmoulton@vt.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Michael S. Moulton" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ANSI_X3.4-1968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article <9qv320$lvg$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, "Michael S. Moulton" wrote: > Obviously the hills are busy, but how active is Corewar really? It's > surprising to me that the newest pMARS is still 0.8.0... it was that way > when I first looked at Corewar about 2 years ago. There are other > projects out there (corewars.sourceforge.net seems to have its own > hills, even-- anyone know anything about this?) but most of the > information available is from 1999 or earlier. Actually, after browsing a little... I see that _some_ of the hills are still busy. KOTH.org seems to have activity, but nothing goes on ever with the Pizza hills-- are they still active? I did find the new pMARS on Sourceforge... why doesn't KOTH.org link to this??? And I see that the "other" Sourceforge project (corewars.sourceforge.net) doesn't even support the full ICWS'94... not sure what they're up to. Just wondering why there seems to be nothing happening... From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 22 03:49:32 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9M0nSW11643 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 03:49:28 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9M0nRV31456 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 03:49:27 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA14424; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: adamow@if.pw.edu.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Lukasz Adamowski To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Michael S. Moulton wrote: > Obviously the hills are busy, but how active is Corewar really? It's > surprising to me that the newest pMARS is still 0.8.0... Maybe it's perfectly finished and need no developing at all B))) Lukasz From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 22 03:49:33 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9M0nPW11672 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 03:49:25 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9M0nOV04598 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 03:49:24 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA14401; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: adamow@if.pw.edu.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Lukasz Adamowski To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Did I miss something? ;) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Paul Khuong wrote: > Agreed with that. Thing is, who here wants to write a tutorial? If only > school wasn't such a soporiphic, i guess i would have tried continuing on my > stuff, but... Gee... I have aleady written a tutorial for my hill, so do not make me do this once again. B) It's in Polish, so useless for many of newbies, but it's my part in making CW more popular. > Any suggestion to improve the plan? A certain episode is too big and should > be cut in half, etc? > > Paul KHUONG(not KLINE) > > BTW, any newbie should jsut post here instead of wating for any tutorial for /\ || And one more thing: it's easy to recognize your post, Paul Khuong, because some of your fingers seems to be faster than others. :))) Lukasz From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 22 16:09:11 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MD9AW30474 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:09:10 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MD98V01811 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:09:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA20393; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200110220400.AAA17916@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 10/22/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/22/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Oct 21 18:43:31 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 37/ 22/ 41 Inky Ian Oversby 151 177 2 37/ 23/ 41 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 151 460 3 35/ 20/ 44 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 150 287 4 46/ 47/ 6 He Scans Alone x P.Kline 145 26 5 34/ 24/ 42 Olivia Ben Ford 145 426 6 32/ 19/ 50 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 144 698 7 34/ 25/ 40 Uninvited John Metcalf 143 380 8 36/ 29/ 35 Blacken Ian Oversby 142 945 9 42/ 42/ 16 Hazy Lazy ... Steve Gunnell 142 40 10 41/ 42/ 18 Behemot Michal Janeczek 140 521 11 32/ 25/ 43 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 139 121 12 43/ 48/ 9 Test S M1 None 137 24 13 32/ 26/ 42 Revival Fire P.Kline 137 166 14 30/ 24/ 46 Qtest Christian Schmidt 137 220 15 24/ 16/ 61 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 132 398 16 33/ 35/ 32 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 131 399 17 38/ 45/ 17 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 130 655 18 22/ 16/ 61 Mr Sheen Test B 8 Steve Gunnell 128 3 19 39/ 51/ 10 hTest P.Kline 128 1 20 37/ 47/ 17 Jinx Christian Schmidt 127 661 21 9/ 82/ 9 Mutato Lukasz Adamowski 36 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 22 16:10:16 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MDAGW30742 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:10:16 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MDAEV30224 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:10:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA20426; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:08:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:08:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200110220400.AAA17904@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 10/22/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/22/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Fri Oct 19 17:36:37 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 19/ 48 Freight Train David Moore 147 78 2 32/ 20/ 48 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 145 35 3 31/ 19/ 50 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 143 17 4 29/ 20/ 50 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 77 5 21/ 8/ 71 qenig1 test John Metcalf 135 1 6 39/ 44/ 17 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 134 74 7 34/ 34/ 32 PacMan David Moore 133 107 8 35/ 37/ 28 Stasis David Moore 132 185 9 38/ 44/ 19 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 132 115 10 30/ 28/ 42 Frog Sticker P.Kline 132 27 11 23/ 16/ 61 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 130 91 12 24/ 18/ 58 Jinglo John Metcalf 130 2 13 25/ 22/ 53 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 129 33 14 23/ 18/ 59 Test I Ian Oversby 128 134 15 32/ 36/ 32 Tangle Trap David Moore 127 151 16 23/ 20/ 57 Evoltmp 88 John K W 127 128 17 34/ 41/ 25 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 126 353 18 35/ 46/ 19 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 125 403 19 35/ 47/ 18 ig Wayne Sheppard 124 5 20 12/ 3/ 85 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 121 6 21 4/ 54/ 43 VLIV'88 Wayne Sheppard 54 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 22 16:10:45 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MDAjW30888 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:10:45 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MDAhV21557 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:10:43 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA20461; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200110220400.AAA17912@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 10/22/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/22/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Oct 4 10:23:04 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 35/ 19/ 45 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 152 31 2 41/ 33/ 26 Black Moods Ian Oversby 148 95 3 29/ 15/ 56 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 144 39 4 42/ 41/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 143 59 5 34/ 29/ 37 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 140 28 6 36/ 35/ 29 Ogre Christian Schmidt 138 47 7 22/ 7/ 71 Denial David Moore 138 40 8 30/ 24/ 46 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 136 38 9 34/ 32/ 34 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 136 99 10 20/ 7/ 73 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 133 168 11 23/ 13/ 64 Kin John Metcalf 133 7 12 18/ 4/ 77 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 132 116 13 19/ 6/ 75 Black Box v1.1 JKW 132 62 14 23/ 19/ 58 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 128 121 15 28/ 34/ 38 test CS 123 56 16 32/ 45/ 24 Pagan John K W 119 153 17 19/ 20/ 62 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 118 120 18 22/ 25/ 53 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 118 26 19 19/ 21/ 60 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 117 1 20 26/ 46/ 28 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 106 5 21 12/ 86/ 1 my sucky warrior john q. redcoder 39 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 22 16:10:55 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MDAtW30624 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:10:55 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MDArV21574 for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:10:53 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA20486; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200110220400.AAA17908@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 10/22/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/22/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Oct 21 18:41:27 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 37 84 2 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 35 23 3 test John Metcalf 32 12 4 fclear Brian Haskin 30 68 5 8thTest Gino Oblena 28 15 6 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 25 40 7 QuiVa John Metcalf 24 177 8 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 21 2 9 Her Majesty P.Kline 16 103 10 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 16 1 11 Mutato Lukasz Adamowski 0 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Oct 23 01:24:14 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MMODW05287 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:24:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MMOCV09084 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:24:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA24111; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Did I miss something? ;) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Lukasz > Adamowski > Sent: 21 octobre, 2001 20:48 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: RE: Did I miss something? ;) > > > On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Paul Khuong wrote: > > > Agreed with that. Thing is, who here wants to write a tutorial? If only > > school wasn't such a soporiphic, i guess i would have tried > continuing on my > > stuff, but... > > Gee... I have aleady written a tutorial for my hill, so do not make me > do this once again. B) It's in Polish, so useless for many of newbies, but > it's my part in making CW more popular. Translation??? PLEASE! 8) > > Any suggestion to improve the plan? A certain episode is too > big and should > > be cut in half, etc? > > > > Paul KHUONG(not KLINE) > > > > BTW, any newbie should jsut post here instead of wating for any > tutorial for > /\ > || > And one more thing: it's easy to recognize your post, Paul Khuong, because > some of your fingers seems to be faster than others. :))) Well, that's what too much chatting and too much time spent in front of a piano does to you 8) It's really a problem with my keyboard, i swear ;-) Anyway, with a spellchecker, i'm usually fine. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Oct 23 01:24:26 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MMOQW05676 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:24:26 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MMOOV25536 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:24:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA24134; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: How active is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Lukasz > Adamowski > Sent: 21 octobre, 2001 20:48 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? > > > On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Michael S. Moulton wrote: > > > Obviously the hills are busy, but how active is Corewar really? It's > > surprising to me that the newest pMARS is still 0.8.0... > > Maybe it's perfectly finished and need no developing at all B))) Impossible... There's always room for improvement 8) (see, no typo! ^_^) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Oct 23 01:36:48 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MMamW07813 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:36:48 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MMajV08209 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:36:46 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA24336; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:35:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:35:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: How active is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Michael > S. Moulton > Sent: 21 octobre, 2001 18:29 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? > > > In article <9qv320$lvg$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, "Michael S. Moulton" > wrote: > > Obviously the hills are busy, but how active is Corewar really? It's > > surprising to me that the newest pMARS is still 0.8.0... it was that way > > when I first looked at Corewar about 2 years ago. There are other > > projects out there (corewars.sourceforge.net seems to have its own > > hills, even-- anyone know anything about this?) but most of the > > information available is from 1999 or earlier. > > Actually, after browsing a little... I see that _some_ of the hills are > still busy. KOTH.org seems to have activity, but nothing goes on ever > with the Pizza hills-- are they still active? Pizza is erhm... RIP. It used to freeze pretty often, but now, it seems that it's gonna stay that way. > I did find the new pMARS on Sourceforge... why doesn't KOTH.org link to > this??? And I see that the "other" Sourceforge project > (corewars.sourceforge.net) doesn't even support the full ICWS'94... not > sure what they're up to. It DOES link to it, iirc. About the corewarS project: The author came here, with some advertising; most of us pointed some problems in his scoring system, etc., plus the fact that it would only confuse newbies. He just continued with his idea. Oh, well.... > Just wondering why there seems to be nothing happening... I don't know really..Maybe the searchspace has all been explored, so we all sort of lost all interest 8( *Lukasz(?) Another way of seeing which psots are mine is to check the ... and smiley density: Kline is way too old to write like I do 8)* --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Oct 23 01:48:55 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MMmtW02968 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:48:55 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9MMmsV16029 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2001 01:48:54 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA24470; Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Did I miss something? ;) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of > QuickTransit > Sent: 21 octobre, 2001 17:29 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: Did I miss something? ;) > > > I used to play Corewar years ago. In fact, Redcode was the first > programming > language I ever learned. I gave up on the game because a number > of factors > have pushed it into what I view as a boring and sterile dead end, > which MAJORLY > restrict the amount of interest it can get from new players. > > Specifically: > - Hyper-efficiency. There are two parts to this. Yes, writing > a beautifully > elegant little set of instructions that does twice what it should > by right be > able to do is a key part of what makes Corewar fun and a key part > of writing > good warriors. What is NOT fun is writing real programs to > figure out optimal > bombing numbers - one of the things that convinced me to leave was when I > noticed people were writing REAL programs to figure out these > optimal numbers. > Corewar is a game. You shouldn't have to do that in order to be > competitive. > In addition, the general efficiency and state of the art of > warrior-making have > brought the competitive programs to an evolutionary dead end; > there are certain > strategies that are absolutely the best, everything else has been > tried, the > only thing that remains is to decide on the details of the > implementation. > This is never going to be fun for more than a small group of > people who already > "own" the game. Optimal bombing numbers:Well, in every game there is, we see stuff like that happen. Magic the gathering, chess(opening books, anyone?), strategy games, etc. Let's take starcraft as an example: People made build for the game, where it would be timed VERY precisely(using the number of peons produced), to have a strategy that would be as optimal as possible. > - Deterministic stupidity. There is NO room for the warriors to > exhibit any > kind of behavior other than blind murderous all-out killing sprees - no > interesting tactics, no adaptation to the enemy's behavior. At > most, there may > be one changeover in behavior, from replication to bombing for > instance, but > there is no subtlety (except, perhaps, from an implementation > standpoint) in > how it's done. Well, did you check the experimental hills? Supposedly, the bigger program size and core size help with these... I ahce no diea if it really works. > - Limited tactics. This arises from the previous two points. The only > legitimate strategies are massive replication, massive bombing, > random spot > checks of the core followed by massive bombing on anything found, or > bastardized combinations of these. (Are imprings still competitive?) I > remember back when the first KotH started up, there were all > sorts of wildy > different tactics and behaviors being tried; I even remember when > the first > CMP-scanner showed up, as well as the first imp-ring. Those were > fun days. > Discovering a fundamentally new way of organizing the code to do something > completely unexpected and more effective than anything that had > come before was > fun in a way that picking bombing numbers and reorganizing the stone/paper > components of a warrior can never be. This potential for > discovery and wildly > different strategies has to be brought back in order for the game to go > anywhere beyond its current holding pattern, which in turn means > that the basis > for the total efficiency of modern warriors has to be fundamentally > re-engineered. This sort of problem also arises in most games. The ROCK-PAPER-SCISSOR is pretty much established and used in most games that i know 8( In the end, we might see something like a mix between ROCK and PAPER, etc, but it's always a variation on a theme 8( There has to be a solution... I'm thinking of using another way to score matches. Maybe something like counting the number of processes each warrior has in the end, while making SPL less efficient(separate it in two or three instructions, so that you have to execute them in a given order to make a SPL, or something like that). > The ease of achieving a lethal and efficient killer is the #1 problem with > giving the game real dimensions. Therefore, the aspects of the > game that make > it easy to code efficient warriors need to be removed. [snip..modifiers are bad bc they make efficient code easy] > There are other things I think should be done - instant access to > any area of > core at any time is something that has always bugged me, although > it can be > worked around; also, it is simply too easy to kill another > process (another > efficiency problem) - but making the act of coding itself a > non-trivial task, > and forcing warriors to lose the tremendous efficiency they currently > demonstrate, goes a long way towards making warrior-writing an interesting > challenge and towards opening up new ways of doing things. > > Obviously with any new set of rules there will always be one path > that is more > efficient than another. This is not avoidable. What IS > avoidable is making > the magnitude of the advantage gained by using that one path so > great as to > make any other path hopeless. Basically, the advantages gained by writing > efficient and lethal code should be able to be counterbalanced by writing > robust and responsive code, or unpredictable code, or code that is equally > lethal in an entirely different fashion. I'm sorry i couldn't cut more, but it would have been hard to summarize most of the post. Basically, we have problems that are the roots of all others: -Efficient code is too easy and too restrictive(only one way of doing it, etc) -Killing is too easy. (which makes efficient code so much more important) Well, i've thought about what i suggested about SPL, and am thinking of applying it to every instruction. Let's make something like a VRISC(^_^ new one)/semi-VLIW, where we only have a very few basic instructions, but by mixing them together, we can get the same that we had with the old IS. PLUS, we can make it harder to kill/produce a process, since we'd have to copy the right sub-instruction to get a [KILL SELF] instruction, [SPL] could be 3x as large, 3x as easy to hit, 3x as long to execute. *Only one sub instruction at a time is executed* Downside:More complicated, though we could provide an "assembler" that would take the opcodes, and transform them into sub instructions. Another idea:RedOS. Let's use that idea that was tried in a previous tourney! It definitely COULD bring balance to the game, but we'd have to make sure that it's used correctly... There could be calls to functions, etc. *Let's imagine overwriting the system call routines ^_^* Downside:Again, more complicated, though system calls could lead to interesting stuff... Last idea:Let's not make it possible to access to all of the memory at once:Bank switching, something! Maybe only allow "short jumps". Also, note that bank switching could work pretty well with RedOS as a call 8) Paul "I have no idea left for a warrior; let's change the IS" Khuong 8) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Oct 24 07:36:02 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9O4a2W06663 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:36:02 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9O4a0V22311 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:36:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA06948; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 00:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BD6306F.3080703@yahoo.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: waknuk@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Philip Thorne To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Michael S. Moulton wrote: > In article <9qv320$lvg$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, "Michael S. Moulton" > wrote: > >>Obviously the hills are busy, but how active is Corewar really? It's >>surprising to me that the newest pMARS is still 0.8.0... it was that way >>when I first looked at Corewar about 2 years ago. There are other >>projects out there (corewars.sourceforge.net seems to have its own >>hills, even-- anyone know anything about this?) but most of the >>information available is from 1999 or earlier. >> > > Actually, after browsing a little... I see that _some_ of the hills are > still busy. KOTH.org seems to have activity, but nothing goes on ever > with the Pizza hills-- are they still active? > > I did find the new pMARS on Sourceforge... why doesn't KOTH.org link to > this??? And I see that the "other" Sourceforge project > (corewars.sourceforge.net) doesn't even support the full ICWS'94... not > sure what they're up to. > > Just wondering why there seems to be nothing happening... > Hi, I'm a newbie or more likely a soon to be ex-newbie as the strong interest/enthusiasm I felt a month or so back has palled somewhat [I haven't written or run any redcode for 2 weeks. [I'm afraid Civ and nethack threaten to battle for my soul at present] The first blow was discovering that Pizza was non-functional and apparently has been that way for at least 3 months (assuming the activity page isn't totally broken). Not finding any reference to this in the newsgroup struck me as ominous. As did the age of the FAQ; the, ahem, __draft '94__ ICWS standard and the demise of the magazines. Searching for a beginner hill I soon found that there's very little visible core-war activity going on. This newsgroup seems moribund and appears to have been so for a long time - I was disappointed to find frequent postings from years past (e.g. '95 and earlier) complaining that the game was stagnant / had few adherrents. However I am optimistic that even if stale for experienced redcoders that it might be fun for a newbie if they resisted reading newer warriors - especially as I was briefly full of "great" ideas. I did find the corewars.sourceforge.net site and so finally did get to submit a warrior (sad to say it was my best at the time and only then because it was fortuitously bug-ridden - quite the eye-opener ). It's really nice to make a submission and get feedback, although I'd rather it hadn't been auto-published. [As an aside it's quite a nice site, especially for a newbie, but it seems a shame that greator efforts weren't made to introduce it within the traditional corewars community rather than further diluting it and confusing things with another language (cheekily named). Even that site though doesn't have much activity especially if, like me, you're only interested in the real thing = redcode. ] I also found Lukasz's site/hills and had a bash at translating parts of it with babelfish. After real fun with the 'fish I discovered that the site was on pause for a few months. [I guess it's revived now]. Although I'm unlikely to submit to the site it's existence did perk me up. The Indian site http://www.corewars.org less so as it doesn't seem to be progressing and if/when it's up some of the hills will be India-only - waste of an url?. I got to wondering about the history of corewars [that Dewdney fellow stole all my best ideas!] and of the ICWS. Try as I might I can't discover who comprised that and what really went wrong [was the not-so-recent postings by the former president, I forget his name, a hoax? No web address. ]. I do feel that corewars would be better off if the various factions united - this more-so than any tinkering with the language [from the perspective of bringing new blood to the game]. Waiting for the ICWS to revive seems a forlorn hope - in this respect I applaud Walter Hoffman's (sp?) efforts. He's made a difference. There is potential to popularise the game [although I'm not experienced enough to know/say whether this is a good thing - as in ultimately more rewarding alternatives. Sensible answer must be "no" - but, hey, that's true of everything.]. For example thru deja[news] searches I found a few passing references to corewars in quite unrelated groups - things along the lines of "there used to be a game blah, blah wonder what became of it?"] that could have been followed-up by an ICWS replacement. Lastly, re the language - it is quite complicated [I'm a long-time C programmer] but the tutorials (I started with Ilmari's - thank-you) are helpful/more than adequate and, especially if all the hills were functional, there's plenty of scope to learn piecemeal. I do think it might be better to concentrate on changing the "playing field" than redcode - e.g. imaginative tournament restrictions / team-work / peculiar sized cores.... if you need some spice. If the language were to change I suggest it be done so as a deliberate step to retire the ICWS legacy [copyright?]. In the meantime I've got wilkies to compete against and if that's too much for me I can always succumb to the lure/spoiler of reading famous warriors loads (tx Planar) - "He Scans Alone" and "Blur" sound so intriguing. Time permitting.... Philb From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Oct 24 09:31:41 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9O6VeW20502 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:31:40 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9O6VdV23156 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:31:39 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA07627; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 02:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 02:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9r5l3p$6lr$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mmoulton@vt.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Michael S. Moulton" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ANSI_X3.4-1968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article <3BD6306F.3080703@yahoo.com>, "Philip Thorne" wrote: > Hi, I'm a newbie or more likely a soon to be ex-newbie as the strong > interest/enthusiasm I felt a month or so back has palled somewhat [I > haven't written or run any redcode for 2 weeks. [I'm afraid Civ and > nethack threaten to battle for my soul at present] > > The first blow was discovering that Pizza was non-functional and > apparently has been that way for at least 3 months (assuming the > activity page isn't totally broken). Not finding any reference to this > in the newsgroup struck me as ominous. As did the age of the FAQ; the, > ahem, __draft '94__ ICWS standard and the demise of the magazines. > > Searching for a beginner hill I soon found that there's very little > visible core-war activity going on. This newsgroup seems moribund and > appears to have been so for a long time - I was disappointed to find > frequent postings from years past (e.g. '95 and earlier) complaining > that the game was stagnant / had few adherrents. However I am optimistic > that even if stale for experienced redcoders that it might be fun for a > newbie if they resisted reading newer warriors - especially as I was > briefly full of "great" ideas. > > I did find the corewars.sourceforge.net site and so finally did get to > submit a warrior (sad to say it was my best at the time and only then > because it was fortuitously bug-ridden - quite the eye-opener ). It's > really nice to make a submission and get feedback, although I'd rather > it hadn't been auto-published. > > [As an aside it's quite a nice site, especially for a newbie, but it > seems a shame that greator efforts weren't made to introduce it within > the traditional corewars community rather than further diluting it and > confusing things with another language (cheekily named). Even that site > though doesn't have much activity especially if, like me, you're only > interested in the real thing = redcode. ] > > I also found Lukasz's site/hills and had a bash at translating parts of > it with babelfish. After real fun with the 'fish I discovered that the > site was on pause for a few months. [I guess it's revived now]. Although > I'm unlikely to submit to the site it's existence did perk me up. The > Indian site http://www.corewars.org less so as it doesn't seem to be > progressing and if/when it's up some of the hills will be India-only - > waste of an url?. > > I got to wondering about the history of corewars [that Dewdney fellow > stole all my best ideas!] and of the ICWS. Try as I might I can't > discover who comprised that and what really went wrong [was the > not-so-recent postings by the former president, I forget his name, a > hoax? No web address. ]. > > I do feel that corewars would be better off if the various factions > united - this more-so than any tinkering with the language [from the > perspective of bringing new blood to the game]. Waiting for the ICWS to > revive seems a forlorn hope - in this respect I applaud Walter Hoffman's > (sp?) efforts. He's made a difference. > > There is potential to popularise the game [although I'm not experienced > enough to know/say whether this is a good thing - as in ultimately more > rewarding alternatives. Sensible answer must be "no" - but, hey, that's > true of everything.]. For example thru deja[news] searches I found a few > passing references to corewars in quite unrelated groups - things along > the lines of "there used to be a game blah, blah wonder what became of > it?"] that could have been followed-up by an ICWS replacement. > > Lastly, re the language - it is quite complicated [I'm a long-time C > programmer] but the tutorials (I started with Ilmari's - thank-you) are > helpful/more than adequate and, especially if all the hills were > functional, there's plenty of scope to learn piecemeal. I do think it > might be better to concentrate on changing the "playing field" than > redcode - e.g. imaginative tournament restrictions / team-work / > peculiar sized cores.... if you need some spice. If the language were to > change I suggest it be done so as a deliberate step to retire the ICWS > legacy [copyright?]. > > In the meantime I've got wilkies to compete against and if that's too > much for me I can always succumb to the lure/spoiler of reading famous > warriors loads (tx Planar) - "He Scans Alone" and "Blur" sound so > intriguing. Time permitting.... Wow... quite a post! I'm still a newbie too, really. I first found Corewar back in 1999, but I didn't get into it-- was busy with college, had _never_ done assembly language, and just didn't know where to start. But going through bookmarks about a week ago, I just started finding things again. The thing that disappointed me is really that there's virtually nothing new from when I looked in 1999... no new documentation, software, anything-- except the Corewars project on Sourceforge, which is a disappointment in itself b/c he chose to ignore everything that was already established! Losing Pizza unfortunately means losing the beginner's hills... which makes it pretty difficult for a newbie to get into the game! I'm shocked that the web site hasn't even been updated to say what happened to it! It's like it just died and everyone just said "oh well, screw it." Your points about the ICWS... I have wondered the same thing. Why did it go away? Bring it back! :) --Mike From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Oct 24 16:34:11 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9ODXjW17631 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:33:45 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9ODXTV29236 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 16:33:44 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA11362; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: foehg@max.localdomain Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Ransom Smith To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Yes, that seems indeed to be just about the shape of things. Well said, sir. Incidentally, just to throw out an idea i've been idly toying with for a few months... How about a tournament in the most restrictive possible but still complete subset of ICWS'94? .F would be disallowed, JMP CMP SEQ SNE DJN JMN could all be replaced by JMZ. ADD is useless in the face of SUB. MOD I bet you can do by hand. Anyway, you get the idea. -- [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] No, I don't Yahoo. --**([{ LIFE IS FAIR. --**-- LIVE WITH IT. }])**-- From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Oct 24 20:35:29 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9OHZRW15365 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:35:27 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9OHZQV23452 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 20:35:26 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12904; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <92b0a3d6.0110240849.2dcf80ac@posting.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu (P. Kline) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Changing the Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In a real ecosystem all forms do not struggle against each other, they find niches where they feed on a small number of forms and are in turn eaten by others. The goal is not to dominate but to survive, so here is a thought experiment. Let each participant identify itself by "form" - grasshopper, cat, eagle...- and also identify a number of forms that it wants to eat. This food list determines which players battle together, if you are not on somebody's diet, and they are not on yours, you don't fight them. To determine who stays on the Hill use a scoring system that compares how successful you are in killing your food forms versus how successfully you defend against predators. For example, if I am a Grasshopper my food list would include a number of plant forms. Bird forms would list me in their food lists. I would fight each of the plants and all of the birds. My score is the ratio of wins against plants to losses against birds. Low score is out of the game. The Hill would be initially populated with lots, maybe hundreds, of simple algae forms, and the first challengers would be algae eaters. Then would come forms that feed on some of the algae eaters. One issue would be that any new form would have no predators and would always get in. So let there be a limited number of forms, say 10, and let there be be room for 100 players. Once all 10 forms are present then the evolutionary fun begins - prey develop defenses, predators adapt to new diets, food forms suffer population collapse leaving feeders at risk, large carnivores refuse to challenge each other, mimicry, etc. Okay, here is another idea. Instead of specifying a limited number of food items you have to rank order the 10 forms. You fight all the players on the top food item, and some of the ones down the list, to a total of twenty battles. That way if there is a shortage of preferred food you get to try your luck eating cabbages and chickens. You also will be challenged to fight by predators. It's a little rough but we could work out details. To implement looks fairly easy. Each challenger includes a line identifying its form and another of ranked food like: ;form j ;food acfedhjigl The referee program lines up the battles and scores the results. No change to the instruction set or pmars is needed. Initialize the Hill with 100 varieties of: form A - bombers (bees) form B - replicators (mice) form C - scanners (eagles) form D - stone-imps (porcupines) with the appropriate ;food lists. The other seven forms are not specified but will be sorted out after time through competition. One other change I would make is to make the source code of every player visible. One reason interest in the game wanes from time to time is that you have too many unpublished programs to fight. Maybe make EQU lines invisible to protect constants. No pspace. Paul Kline pk6811s@acad.drake.edu From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Oct 25 01:43:28 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9OMhSW20136 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:43:28 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9OMhPV14475 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:43:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA14745; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of P. > Kline > Sent: 24 octobre, 2001 13:34 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Changing the Game > > > In a real ecosystem all forms do not struggle against each other, they > find niches where they feed on a small number of forms and are in turn > eaten by others. The goal is not to dominate but to survive, so here > is a thought experiment. > > Let each participant identify itself by "form" - grasshopper, > cat, eagle...- > and also identify a number of forms that it wants to eat. This food list > determines which players battle together, if you are not on somebody's > diet, and they are not on yours, you don't fight them. To determine > who stays on the Hill use a scoring system that compares how successful > you are in killing your food forms versus how successfully you defend > against predators. [snip] > It's a little rough but we could work out details. > > To implement looks fairly easy. Each challenger includes a line > identifying > its form and another of ranked food like: > > ;form j > ;food acfedhjigl > > The referee program lines up the battles and scores the results. > No change > to the instruction set or pmars is needed. Initialize the Hill with 100 > varieties of: > > form A - bombers (bees) > form B - replicators (mice) > form C - scanners (eagles) > form D - stone-imps (porcupines) > > with the appropriate ;food lists. The other seven forms are not > specified but will be sorted out after time through competition. > > One other change I would make is to make the source code of every player > visible. One reason interest in the game wanes from time to time is that > you have too many unpublished programs to fight. Maybe make EQU lines > invisible to protect constants. No pspace. NICE! I'm willing to set up an email account, and run the battles every evening ^_^ I'm not sure if it could bring anything, but maybe that by making the score gaioned in battles be dependant on the score of the other warrior, we could get a better kind of balance than just "bad warriors tend to leave the ecosystem". Also, how do we enforce the warrior type? What if i had a replicator, but labeled it as a stone? Or vice-versa? And, do we have to completely fill the food list? What happens if it isn't filled? OK. I suppose that it wouldn't be too hard to build a perl script? I mean, it's all simple regex, right? BTW, WHY is it that source isn't always shown, or at LEAST by default? PS, isn't it nice how everyone is a bottom-poster? I suppose that it means something about the players ^_^ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Oct 25 01:44:24 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9OMiOW20201 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:44:24 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9OMiNV24534 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:44:23 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA14769; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <003201c15cc8$c19ea9e0$2100a8c0@HomePC> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ff95@dial.pipex.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Robert Macrae" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Status: RO X-Status: > In a real ecosystem all forms do not struggle against each other, they > find niches where they feed on a small number of forms and are in turn > eaten by others. The goal is not to dominate but to survive, so here > is a thought experiment. .. Brilliant. You could extend the ecology parallel by setting the relative abundances within each form as a function of the success of the warriors. For example, weight_i = ( 16 - rank_i ) / 105 would set the best example within each form to 15% and the weakest to 5%. When another warrior tried to eat that form it would fight 15% of its rounds against the best, 5% against the weakest and in between for the others. If we stay with the current 5000 rounds as giving a reasonable balance between time and accuracy, and assuming each warrior nominates 4 forms to eat, there are 40 battles are of between 68 and 187 rounds each; sounds feasible? I am not sure how we might penalise forms that give away lots of points. One possibility would be to set the abundance of the form as a whole as a function of the points scored against it, perhaps on a similar 5-15% basis, perhaps tweaked to break ties. With this kind of scheme, warrior abundance is a natural ranking. The top warrior in the top form would have a 2.25% abundance while bottom, bottom would be 0.25%... What I like most about the concept is that it injects novelty and complexity where it is needed, in the strategy space. This will provide a much more dynamic environment. Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Oct 25 01:45:47 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9OMjlW18766 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:45:47 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9OMjjV14562 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 01:45:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA14819; Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: adamow@if.pw.edu.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Lukasz Adamowski To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Philip Thorne wrote: > I also found Lukasz's site/hills and had a bash at translating parts of > it with babelfish. After real fun with the 'fish I discovered that the > site was on pause for a few months. [I guess it's revived now]. Although > I'm unlikely to submit to the site it's existence did perk me up. Well... Yes, there was a break, because I was away for 3 months. Unfortunately I didn't make my hill automatic like KoTH is. I will change if I only have much time. > Lastly, re the language - it is quite complicated [I'm a long-time C > programmer] but the tutorials (I started with Ilmari's - thank-you) are > helpful/more than adequate and, especially if all the hills were > functional, there's plenty of scope to learn piecemeal. I do think it > might be better to concentrate on changing the "playing field" than > redcode - e.g. imaginative tournament restrictions / team-work / > peculiar sized cores.... if you need some spice. If the language were to > change I suggest it be done so as a deliberate step to retire the ICWS > legacy [copyright?]. As for team-work: remember, once I was talking about the enigmatic tournament with two teams and jugde. Only jugde knows who is in which team and he sends to proper person only the last instruction of written code. This person sends back next instruction. Then jugde sends his "move" to another person from the same team etc. After, let's say, 10 instructions everything stops and warrior written by team A fights with warrior written by team B. Then he publishes both sources and score. The advantage of this tournament is that everybody can play: newbies and well-known players. No one is prefered, because luck counts much more than knowledge (it doesn't mean knowledge have nothing to do here, of course :) It may be great fun and make many newbie come near. Lukasz From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Oct 25 10:36:25 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9P7aPW31537 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:36:25 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9P7aOV23188 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:36:24 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA19519; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BD7B3B4.1060808@yahoo.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: waknuk@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Philip Thorne To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Michael S. Moulton wrote: > In article <3BD6306F.3080703@yahoo.com>, "Philip Thorne" > wrote: > [...] >> > > Wow... quite a post! I'm still a newbie too, really. I first found Heh, it was a little bottled-up - things I'd been meaning to say a while back but didn't and likely wouldn't if you hadn't posted. tx > Corewar back in 1999, but I didn't get into it-- was busy with college, > had _never_ done assembly language, and just didn't know where to start. > But going through bookmarks about a week ago, I just started finding > things again. The thing that disappointed me is really that there's > virtually nothing new from when I looked in 1999... no new documentation, > software, anything-- except the Corewars project on Sourceforge, which is > a disappointment in itself b/c he chose to ignore everything that was > already established! > > Losing Pizza unfortunately means losing the beginner's hills... which > makes it pretty difficult for a newbie to get into the game! I'm shocked > that the web site hasn't even been updated to say what happened to it! > It's like it just died and everyone just said "oh well, screw it." > The corewars sourceforge site does have a beginners redcode hill. Most usage seems to be for evolved warriors (a relatively active sub-genre). A nice thing about it is that you can submit your warrior directly thru a form. I mean to try it again, perhaps late in the weekend ... wonder if anyone I "know" will beat me onto the hill.. > Your points about the ICWS... I have wondered the same thing. Why did it > go away? Bring it back! :) > The guy who claims to be the last president but one occassionally posts to other (non-related) newsgroups - I thought of sending him an email but it might be a bit presumptious, especially if I don't hang around. > --Mike > Philb From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Oct 25 10:36:32 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9P7aWW03123 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:36:32 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9P7aUV25528 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:36:31 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA19547; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BD7B979.7050505@yahoo.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: waknuk@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Philip Thorne To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Lukasz Adamowski wrote: > On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Philip Thorne wrote: > > >>I also found Lukasz's site/hills and had a bash at translating parts of >>it with babelfish. After real fun with the 'fish I discovered that the >>site was on pause for a few months. [I guess it's revived now]. Although >>I'm unlikely to submit to the site it's existence did perk me up. >> > > Well... Yes, there was a break, because I was away for 3 months. > Unfortunately I didn't make my hill automatic like KoTH is. I will change > if I only have much time. > I liked what I saw, plus I noticed at least one KOTH veteran on one of the hills. The reason I say I'm unlikely to post to it is that first I'd want to come-up with a decent warrior and have learnt that that's harder and more costly in time than I'd thought. BTW the "engine" of my beginner warrior came from one of your earlier posts - I discovered later you named it The Shortest Worm. > >>[...] > > As for team-work: remember, once I was talking about the enigmatic > tournament with two teams and jugde. Only jugde knows who is in which team > and he sends to proper person only the last instruction of written code. > This person sends back next instruction. Then jugde sends his "move" to > another person from the same team etc. After, let's say, 10 instructions > everything stops and warrior written by team A fights with warrior written > by team B. Then he publishes both sources and score. The advantage of this > tournament is that everybody can play: newbies and well-known players. > No one is prefered, because luck counts much more than knowledge (it > doesn't mean knowledge have nothing to do here, of course :) It may be > great fun and make many newbie come near. > Interesting but I think it might be so random / uncoordinated that it could be frustrating. Then again, it might entice some of the evolutionary crowd. Hmm, how about the same basic idea (team-members contributing independently) but with the members supplying components (scanner, stone , 5-line-wonder...) and the "leader" doing the best he can to assemble them into something viable? Not sure how you'd avoid cut'n'paste of published warriors or if that would be a problem. > Lukasz > Philb From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Oct 25 11:30:42 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9P8UbW19802 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:30:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9P8UZV18041 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:30:36 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA19877; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 04:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 04:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BD7B701.32482B38@someoneelse.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: spam@someoneelse.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: HiEv To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: O X-Status: Ransom Smith wrote: [snip] > How about a tournament in the most restrictive possible but still complete > subset of ICWS'94? > > .F would be disallowed, JMP CMP SEQ SNE DJN JMN could all be replaced by JMZ. > ADD is useless in the face of SUB. MOD I bet you can do by hand. > Anyway, you get the idea. Well, I like all the more advanced commands, the thing that has always bothered me though is that any "intelligent" programs were too big and too slow to compete, an imp ring could always take them out easily. An idea I had would be to change the length of time that each command takes, so that commands that would mainly be used to make your code smarter would go much faster than commands that are frequent in "dumb" programs. You could make some commands run at different speeds if they did different things too. For example, a MOV that copied a MOV line could take a whole time tick (slows down imps) while a MOV that copied a DAT line to a space within 10 memory locations would take 0.3 time ticks (to speed up imp stompers). You could also make moving DATs, SPLs, or jumps to further locations slow if they are dropped on empty memory, as this would slow down random memory bombers and encourage smarter bombing tactics while not slowing replicators down too much. The program would either allow <= 1 time tics to occur and the rest are wasted, or >=1 time ticks to occur and the extra are subtracted from the next time tick for that memory pointer. I kind of like the first one as that would give you the fun of further optimization. :-) Obviously this would take some research to figure out how much time for each of the commands to take and what situations should have slightly different times, but the advantage is that no code is broken. Any program that works in this version or the standard CoreWars will still work, it's just that some will now have different advantages and disadvantages. As abuses are found (and it would be silly to think that they won't be) we could refine it until it is a fairly level playing field for smart and dumb programs. Any thoughts on this? From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Oct 25 19:31:27 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PGVRW15958 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:31:27 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PGVQV24526 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:31:26 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA22690; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <92b0a3d6.0110250729.2ccd4a70@posting.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu (P. Kline) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: "Paul Khuong" wrote in message news:... <....> > I'm not sure if it could bring anything, but maybe that by making the score > gaioned in battles be dependant on the score of the other warrior, we could > get a better kind of balance than just "bad warriors tend to leave the > ecosystem". Evolve or die, kick them out. > Also, how do we enforce the warrior type? What if i had a replicator, but > labeled it as a stone? Or vice-versa? And, do we have to completely fill the > food list? What happens if it isn't filled? Snake camouflaged as plant, plant decorated like snake. Mimicry works if not overdone. If progA is a stone claiming to be paper it will be on every scanner's food list and no paper's. But if enough of them exist then some strong papers will move scanners up on their diet. Another strategy for papers would be to make other paper the preferred food with stones and scanners down the list a bit. If your food list is incomplete your submission is rejected. > BTW, WHY is it that source isn't always shown, or at LEAST by default? This was an agreement among the original Hill creators and players, maybe to protect programmers who were trying out new ideas from someone running away with their idea and claiming ownership (there was no Planar's archive at first). However, making the source available by request or on website should help offset excessive mimicry. Another idea is to have the source of players dropped from the Hill put into archive automatically, creating a fossil record. And I would leave the scoring system alone, 3 points for win, 1 for tie, zero for loss. A tie might represent taking a bite out of something without killing it. Let the ecosystem sort them out. Evolution will be very fast at first for sure, and it may never reach stability. There is no point of optimization that can't be broken by a new player with a different diet. The current Hills are too stable for many players, and too hard for beginners to break in. With the ecosystem a newbie could examine the source of all the players - learning much - come up with a diet list or camouflage idea (or even some new code!) and get on. Paul Kline pk6811s@acad.drake.edu From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Oct 25 19:31:32 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PGVWW13199 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:31:32 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PGVUV03754 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:31:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA22671; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <92b0a3d6.0110250733.3a18b234@posting.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu (P. Kline) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: "Robert Macrae" wrote in message news:<003201c15cc8$c19ea9e0$2100a8c0@HomePC>... > You could extend the ecology parallel by setting the relative abundances > within each form as a function of the success of the warriors. For > example, weight_i = ( 16 - rank_i ) / 105 would set the best example > within each form to 15% and the weakest to 5%. When another warrior tried > to eat that form it would fight 15% of its rounds against the best, 5% > against the weakest and in between for the others. I say let the weaker players die, why penalize the best ones, most hunters prefer to prey on the weaker prey. It would also be simpler to implement if the only change was to have the referee program lay out the battles and leave the scoring system and outcomes program alone. Paul Kline pk6811s@acad.drake.edu From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Oct 25 20:31:38 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PHVbW06440 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:31:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PHVaV20190 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:31:36 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA23126; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9r9g9n$6ds$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mmoulton@vt.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Michael S. Moulton" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ANSI_X3.4-1968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article <3BD7B701.32482B38@someoneelse.com>, "HiEv" wrote: > Well, I like all the more advanced commands, the thing that has always > bothered me though is that any "intelligent" programs were too big and > too slow to compete, an imp ring could always take them out easily. > > An idea I had would be to change the length of time that each command > takes, so that commands that would mainly be used to make your code > smarter would go much faster than commands that are frequent in "dumb" > programs. Although it's backwards from real computers (where simpler instructions are faster), this idea does make sense! It would give longer programs a better chance. A simple change that would have a major effect on strategy. From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Oct 25 22:32:12 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PJWBW01992 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:32:12 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PJWAV12517 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:32:10 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA23999; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9r9nlu$gch$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mmoulton@vt.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Michael S. Moulton" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ANSI_X3.4-1968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article <9r9n8u$mri$1@kenny.mimuw.edu.pl>, "Arek Paterek" wrote: > Nice, but I find these changes too small. I think the biggest > disatvantage in this game is that the really good programs are too much > complicated. And You know why? Try to write a big and optimized program > in Assembler that is easy to understand. I think small changes are what we need. Big changes mean that it's just not Corewar anymore. From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Oct 25 22:32:15 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PJWEW27136 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:32:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PJWDV12521 for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 22:32:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA24019; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9r9n8u$mri$1@kenny.mimuw.edu.pl> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: arekp@ds2.uw.edu.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Arek Paterek To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: P. Kline wrote: [...] Nice, but I find these changes too small. I think the biggest disatvantage in this game is that the really good programs are too much complicated. And You know why? Try to write a big and optimized program in Assembler that is easy to understand. And here is my idea - let's create a corewar language which supports dividing a program into modules. In every cell in the arena there won't be one instruction but one function. The time in which every instruction in the function executes will be proportional (somehow) to the length of the function (number of instructions it has). The details which must be researched are: * How to pass parameters to functions? How can the functions return values? * What to do with the addresses? (my prop. - divide them into two classes: local adresses - in the function, and global - in the arena) * What to do with the instructions: - SPL (my proposal - forks an another process which starts its execution in the function in address from the parameter (which is global) of the SPL) - JMP,JMZ,... (my prop. - jumps will be restricted to one function - their address parameters must be local) - MOV - DAT (These two instructions will be very important. Any ideas, how should they work? Are they really needed? Maybe we can form an another way the processes can kill each other?) - global CMP (We need a way a process can detect other "living" processes) - ... * Which new instructions will be needed? - (?) EXEC - moves the execution to another program (equivalent to pair: SPL, DAT) - (?) CALL - moves the execution to another function and after it ends, returns back - ... * What to do when a function ends it's execution? (my prop - kill the process that runs the function) Any ideas? Comments? PS. Sorry for my english :) -- Arek Paterek From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 01:20:23 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PMKLW17865 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:20:21 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PMKKV17491 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:20:20 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA25064; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: adamow@if.pw.edu.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Lukasz Adamowski To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Philip Thorne wrote: > I liked what I saw, plus I noticed at least one KOTH veteran on one of > the hills. Yes, John Metcalf was the first player ever joined my hill and he's still on it, because he wrote warrior to simple to be beaten (just fast multiprocess coreclear). Not many of Polish players are so good as "veterans"... .. and that makes me angry ;) > BTW the "engine" of my beginner warrior came from one of your earlier > posts - I discovered later you named it The Shortest Worm. Actually, it's not the shortest. After I had written it, I discovered many silk-based papers which are more difficult to understand, but more effective (but not always). My last warrior Mutato (this is not a good name, I must think up another) is also "Shortest"-based, but it's quite different in working: start add #5, $0 mov <-1, {3 jmn $-1, $-2 spl {-1, {-2 jmp $1033, >-4 BTW my opinion is source of every warrior should be published. It gives you no financial profits to keep it for yourself (maybe in some tournaments) and can be very useful for newbies. It's only a game! > Hmm, how about the same basic idea (team-members contributing > independently) but with the members supplying components (scanner, stone > , 5-line-wonder...) and the "leader" doing the best he can to assemble > them into something viable? Not sure how you'd avoid cut'n'paste of > published warriors or if that would be a problem. I think your version gives less fun to players (especially beginners) and have the "cut'n'paste" problem you said about. If the code written by one of teams is unworking, we go to the next round. I think in 15 or maybe more rounds chances would be equal. > Philb Lukasz From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 01:32:35 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PMWZW21147 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:32:35 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PMWYV24967 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:32:34 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA25217; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 18:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <20011025180324.09730.00000185@mb-bk.aol.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: quicktransit@aol.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: quicktransit@aol.com (QuickTransit) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: >In a real ecosystem all forms do not struggle against each other, they >find niches where they feed on a small number of forms and are in turn >eaten by others. The goal is not to dominate but to survive, so here >is a thought experiment. > There's two things that don't work with this proposal. First is the proposal itself. (Please feel free to clarify if I'm misinterpreting something) It feels like a cosmetic rearrangement of existing paradigms within the current game, to fit a preconceived model of a real-world ecosystem. There is no guarantee or indication that redefining Redcode towards this model will make for a game that is fun to play, or a balanced model that works well. Second is the manner in which the proposal is made - all the general points already defined, the form the game is to take set up, all that's left to do is tweak a few things and figure out how to implement it. (And I realize this may well not be the intention, but that's what the practical effects of writing it this way look like from here.) I might be prejudiced due to having been away from Usenet for years, but I've found that roundtable discussions (whether in a chatroom, an IRC channel, or in a real meeting room) between 5 to 6 people are far more productive in brainstorming out the key elements of something high-quality; and at the end a designated person writes down all the key points that were agreed on. Message board or Usenet posts don't lend themselves to this kind of sudden coalescence, from what I've seen; which often has the effect of good ideas falling by the wayside due to being in a side branch of a thread, or bad ideas getting stuck in the foundation because they got posted early. If "changing Corewar" is going to be done and done right, the people doing the changing need to know WHAT they're changing it to and WHY. In order to know these things, the key aspects of what the game SHOULD be like need to be decided on. What are the parts that are most fun in the current game? What are the aspects that the game needs to lose? What SHOULD be fun about playing Corewar? Where are there challenges for the player? How much depth is there to each type of challenge? I would say that one of the fun things about Corewar is that it IS an all-out battle to the death between two pieces of software, not a careful ecological balance. If I want ecological balance, I'll dig up SimEarth or maybe even Tierra. What's NOT fun about the current game is that it's too easy to kill or be killed; it's a bit like playing Russian Roulette with a partner, each one holding their gun to the other guy's head. You can use different weight bullets to affect the likelihood of when the chamber stops spinning in the right position, but there's no FUN in the conflict - just randomness, luck, and statistics. (After all, the hills DO run 100 battles between each pair to make sure position doesn't affect things, don't they? Is that something that the game SHOULD have? Do they run 100 battles between virus scanners and viruses, or Trojans and your OS, to make sure the outcome is the same each time? In testing, maybe; when it comes down to the real thing, of course not. Is this a game of conflict, or a statistics analysis?) Basically, the design requirements have to be carefully thought out and discovered, otherwise what's going to happen is just another set of changes without that have a more-or-less random effect on the "fun" level. (Did P-space make the game more fun? Seriously, did it? I never tried using it, so I don't know) What I'm getting at is, the key aspects of "ideal Corewar" need to be identified and put together in one place, and the key aspects of "frustrating newbie-unfriendly unfun Corewar" need to be identified and put together in another place, and based on those two things, it should be possible to put together a better Corewar. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 02:32:45 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PNWiW22200 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 02:32:44 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9PNWhV32052 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 02:32:43 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA25608; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 19:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <20011025181228.09730.00000186@mb-bk.aol.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: quicktransit@aol.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: quicktransit@aol.com (QuickTransit) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > >> In a real ecosystem all forms do not struggle against each other, they >> find niches where they feed on a small number of forms and are in turn >> eaten by others. The goal is not to dominate but to survive, so here >> is a thought experiment. >... > >Brilliant. > >You could extend the ecology parallel by setting the relative abundances >within each form as a function of the success of the warriors. For >example, weight_i = ( 16 - rank_i ) / 105 would set the best example See, this is what I'm talking about in the other post. The ecology idea might be "brilliant" in that it's an interesting thing to think about. It might be "brilliant" in that by playing with some formulas you can get some interesting relationships between current Corewar and the ecology idea. But is it "brilliant" in terms of making a FUN GAME? What evidence is there that this would be fun to play, as opposed to an interesting digital simulation? I have not seen any. I am not convinced that Robert has either; this post reads to me more like someone having fun with playing with the numbers and trying to fit things together nicely - which is fun to write and think about, yes, but does it make a reasonable basis for a game? Will it make Corewar more fun? I mean absolutely no offense to anybody involved here, but this looks to me like a bad idea that has been swallowed hook, line, and sinker, without any of the kind of critical design-oriented thought that SHOULD be going on. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 04:03:18 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q13IW30007 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:03:18 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q13GV23770 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:03:17 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA26262; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <00e401c15db2$0ac614c0$2100a8c0@HomePC> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ff95@dial.pipex.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Robert Macrae" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Status: RO X-Status: > See, this is what I'm talking about in the other post. The ecology idea might > be "brilliant" in that it's an interesting thing to think about. It might be > "brilliant" in that by playing with some formulas you can get some interesting > relationships between current Corewar and the ecology idea. > > But is it "brilliant" in terms of making a FUN GAME? > > What evidence is there that this would be fun to play, as opposed to an > interesting digital simulation? The proposal should generate a more complex ecology than we see on the current hills, with greater room for specialists. If it does, it will increase the range challenges available -- there will be in effect 10 different avenues onto the hills, each requiring something different. Both of these would IMO increase fun, and they resemble some of the reasons for which I prefer competitions to hill play. > I have not seen any. I am not convinced that Robert has either; this post > reads to me more like someone having fun with playing with the numbers and > trying to fit things together nicely - which is fun to write and think about, > yes, but does it make a reasonable basis for a game? Will it make Corewar more > fun? Yeah, throwing in weightings was not a smart idea, because it is not fundamental enough to affect whether the idea stands or falls. In my defense, though, it was at least a positive suggestion? > I mean absolutely no offense to anybody involved here, but this looks to me > like a bad idea that has been swallowed hook, line, and sinker, without any of > the kind of critical design-oriented thought that SHOULD be going on. Hey, swallowed by ME, I don't speak for rgc. I'm just afraid my capacities for ciritical design-oriented thinking have been stunned by the awesome majesty of the concept. Normal service may be resumed shortly. Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 04:03:26 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q13QW30489 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:03:26 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q13PV06752 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:03:25 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA26285; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <00e301c15db2$0a1e3c00$2100a8c0@HomePC> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ff95@dial.pipex.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Robert Macrae" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Status: RO X-Status: Quicktransit, I'm going to take the liberty of replying to a mixture of both of your recent posts. > First is the proposal itself. (Please feel free to clarify if I'm > misinterpreting something) It feels like a cosmetic rearrangement of existing > paradigms within the current game, to fit a preconceived model of a real-world > ecosystem. [and] > - Hyper-efficiency... What is NOT fun is writing real programs to figure out optimal > bombing numbers... > In addition, the general efficiency and state of the art of warrior-making have > brought the competitive programs to an evolutionary dead end; there are certain > strategies that are absolutely the best, everything else has been tried, the > only thing that remains is to decide on the details of the implementation. > This is never going to be fun for more than a small group of people who already > "own" the game. I entirely agree with the characterisation of "Hyper-efficiency" but I think you miss how much it depends on the current hill structure. It does not occur in competitions, in which weird, wacky and wonderfull creations sweep the board when somebody thinks differently and gets it right. When you don't know what your opponent is going to do, even approximately, how can you optimise? The skill is to be roughly right about what you face and to write something good to face the guessed threat. There is no optimisation involved at all and the resultant warriors are, with hindsight, usually easy to improve. The proposal addresses the problem pretty effectively. In a purely public hill you can always, if you wish, spend time tweaking the constants of one public warrior to edge a little further up the table, but the extra complexity should give room for far greater tactical innovation. The scoring and competitive landscape are very far from cosmetic. Redcode is a tool used to win some competition. In a knockout, for example, it doesn't matter by how much you beat your opponent so a "good" warrior is one that is hard to beat. In a hill, by contrast, every point counts so a "good" warrior is generally one that wins by a large amount against some warriors. Change the scoring, move the goalposts, and you change the whole game. This changes the whole experience of coding. > Second is the manner in which the proposal is made - all the general points > already defined, the form the game is to take set up, all that's left to do is > tweak a few things and figure out how to implement it. An unkind characterisation. It reminds me, though, of another tweak. Perhaps the best way to define a "form" would be by prespecifying what that form ate? Say each form eats 4 others. Cyclical? Regular? Hierarchical? Go on, the idea is there for improving. With 3 of us looking at it already we only need another 2-3 ;-) > Basically, the design requirements have to be carefully thought out and > discovered, otherwise what's going to happen is just another set of changes > without that have a more-or-less random effect on the "fun" level. (Did > P-space make the game more fun? Seriously, did it? I never tried using it, so > I don't know) It made it easier to assemble existing components into a competitive form. This made it easier for beginners to get onto the P-space hill, which was good. It added a new set of challenges in switcher design, now thoroughly solved. It added a great deal of richness, in a sense, but P-space became the "easy" solution to too many problems and P-switchers tended to become rather dull. It did make the game more fun. However, bottom line, when I eventually run a competition most rounds will be non P-space because I want to force coders to make tough choices, which means taking away easy ones. > What I'm getting at is, the key aspects of "ideal Corewar" need to be > identified and put together in one place, and the key aspects of "frustrating > newbie-unfriendly unfun Corewar" need to be identified and put together in > another place, and based on those two things, it should be possible to put > together a better Corewar. Ideal Corewar -- new challenges, room for both strategic thought and tactical coding, uncertainty, novelty, meaningful value to good design. Newbie-Unfriendly Corewar -- Hyperefficiency, optimisation, limited tactics, few achievable and satisfying goals. > I > remember back when the first KotH started up, there were all sorts of wildy > different tactics and behaviors being tried; I even remember when the first > CMP-scanner showed up, as well as the first imp-ring. Those were fun days. > Discovering a fundamentally new way of organizing the code to do something > completely unexpected and more effective than anything that had come before was > fun in a way that picking bombing numbers and reorganizing the stone/paper > components of a warrior can never be. This potential for discovery and wildly > different strategies has to be brought back in order for the game to go > anywhere beyond its current holding pattern, which in turn means that the basis > for the total efficiency of modern warriors has to be fundamentally > re-engineered. Wow. It must have been an incredibly exciting time. I don't really see a way to recapture it, in full, because the standard hills have been pretty thoroughly investigated. However, some of the really exciting things I have seen, for example Joonas' wonderful invisible warrior or Kline's precision quickscan, have been competition entries that take a totally new approach _to_a_new_situation_. I hope that if we keep creating new situations, we will keep seeing new, exciting code. The "swamp" proposal is, I think, a constructive step because it can increase the richness and diversity of the environment. This will throw up new inspiration. By contrast, I've seen lots of proposals for "improved corewars" that concentrate on tweaking Redcode, and I am rather despondent about the prospects. Redcode is a wonderfully rich and balanced instruction set and '94 is an inspired development of '88... but how much did it really change in the game? It added richness, but the new territory has now been largely explored. P-space enables interesting new competition challenges, but IMO does not much enrich the hills. Maybe the mechanistic, efficient nature of our virtual machine does impose some kind of ultimate limit on the game. If so, maybe we are close to it. If so, however, I suspect that any replacement will come from outside the existing community and grow from the refinement of a new, raw medium rather than from the coarsening of this one... In the meantime I am sure there are more brilliant solutions to discover if we pose the the right problems. Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 04:03:36 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q13aW28570 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:03:36 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q13YV31668 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:03:35 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA26340; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of > QuickTransit > Sent: 25 octobre, 2001 18:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: Changing the Game > > > >In a real ecosystem all forms do not struggle against each other, they > >find niches where they feed on a small number of forms and are in turn > >eaten by others. The goal is not to dominate but to survive, so here > >is a thought experiment. > > > > There's two things that don't work with this proposal. [snip] > I would say that one of the fun things about Corewar is that it > IS an all-out > battle to the death between two pieces of software, not a careful > ecological > balance. If I want ecological balance, I'll dig up SimEarth or maybe even > Tierra. Erhm. I do think that the idea WAS not to have a model; the ecological thing was more of an anlogy, a way fo repsenting the idea. The main point is still that it'd change the way battles are fought. [snip] > Basically, the design requirements have to be carefully thought out and > discovered, otherwise what's going to happen is just another set > of changes > without that have a more-or-less random effect on the "fun" level. (Did > P-space make the game more fun? Seriously, did it? I never > tried using it, so > I don't know) P-Space brought new possibilities to the game, that's for sure. P-Spacers -> brainwashers, handshake, etc. Also, the thing is that we want the best warrior to be at the top of the hill, so we want to fight mroe than 1 battle. > What I'm getting at is, the key aspects of "ideal Corewar" need to be > identified and put together in one place, and the key aspects of > "frustrating > newbie-unfriendly unfun Corewar" need to be identified and put together in > another place, and based on those two things, it should be possible to put > together a better Corewar. Finally, posting the whole concept at once(like what kline did) helps start the conversation. If nothing's right in it, everything will change! That's IT. It jsut makes the brainstorming easier, imho. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 04:03:39 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q13dW31169 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:03:39 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q13bV23785 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:03:37 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA26365; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <008e01c15da3$df8d0ce0$2100a8c0@HomePC> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ff95@dial.pipex.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Robert Macrae" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Status: RO X-Status: >>> For example thru deja[news] searches I found a few passing references to corewars in quite unrelated groups - things along the lines of "there used to be a game blah, blah wonder what became of it?"] that could have been followed-up by an ICWS replacement. <<< Excellent point. Anyone fancy automating a periodic search? Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 04:03:42 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q13fW26764 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:03:41 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q13eV23789 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:03:40 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA26390; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <008d01c15da3$df2ff8c0$2100a8c0@HomePC> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ff95@dial.pipex.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Robert Macrae" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Did I miss something? ;) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Status: RO X-Status: > > I used to play Corewar years ago. In fact, Redcode was the first > > programming language I ever learned. Structured programing came and went. Object orientation is a fad. Redcode endures 8-) Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 04:05:40 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q15XW12492 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:05:34 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q15VV02179 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:05:31 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA26316; Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: grumpy@xanther.digitald.uk.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: John Metcalf To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Core Warrior 72 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: .xX$$x. .x$$$$$$$x. d$$$$$$$$$$$ ,$$$$$$$P' `P' , . $$$$$$P' ' .d b $$$$$P b ,$$x ,$$x ,$$x ,$$b $$. Y$$$$' `$. $$$$$$. $$$$$$ $$P~d$. d$$$b d d$$$ `$$$$ ,$$ $$$$$$$b $$$P `$ $$$b.$$b `Y$$$d$d$$$' . . a . a a .aa . a `$$$ ,$$$,$$' `$$$ $$$' ' $$P$XX$' `$$$$$$$$$ .dP' `$'$ `$'$ , $''$ `$'$ `Y$b ,d$$$P `$b,d$P' `$$. `$$. , `$$P $$$' Y $. $ $ $ Y..P $ `$$$$$$$' $$$P' `$$b `$$$P `P `$' `Y'k. $. $. $. $$' $. Issue 72 13 April, 1999 _______________________________________________________________________________ Core Warrior is a newsletter promoting the game of corewar. Emphasis is placed on the most active hills - currently the '94 draft hill, the beginner hill and the '94 no-pspace hill. Coverage will follow where ever the action is. If you haven't a clue what I'm talking about then check out these five-star internet locals for more information: FAQs are available from: ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/games/corewar-faq.Z http://www.koth.org/corewar-faq.html The ftp site and mirrors are at: ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/corewar ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/mirror ftp://www.koth.org/corewar pMARS itself is also available from: http://www.koth.org/pmars.html ;Stormking http://www.ncs.infi.net/~wtnewton/corewar ;Terry's web page ftp://members.aol.com/ofechner/corewar ;Fechner ftp site Web pages are at: http://www.koth.org/ ;Stormking http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~pizza/koth ;Pizza http://para.inria.fr/~doligez/corewar ;Planar Newbies should check the Stormking page for the FAQ, language specification, guides, and tutorials. Post questions to rec.games.corewar. All new players are infinitely welcome! A collection of Bezzi's hints in the first issues is available at: ftp://ftp.volftp.vol.it/pub/pc/msdos/games/solutions/bbhints.zip _______________________________________________________________________________ Welcome... There has been very little activity either on the hills or in the newsgroup since last issue. However, Ian Oversby's tournament has reached a conclusion, with someone winning a copy of Ian's paper/stone, Recovery. Also, Macrae won the code for Mini-CLP by solving Kline's Challenge. This issue, Christian Schmidt shows us how he constructed and optimized three of his multi-strategy warriors, Digital Dragon, Shadow and Stormbringer :-) -- John Metcalf _______________________________________________________________________________ Current Status of the Internet Pizza Server ICWS '94 Draft Hill: Hill Specs: coresize: 8000 max. processes: 8000 duration: after 80,000 cycles, a tie is declared. max. entry length: 100 minimum distance: 100 rounds fought: 200 instruction set: ICWS '94 Draft # %W / %L / %T Name Author Score Age 1 44.0/ 31.6/ 24.5 Recycled Bits David Moore 156.4 13 2 37.8/ 25.8/ 36.4 Spooky Wench John Metcalf 149.8 0 3 36.3/ 24.9/ 38.9 Puddleglum John Metcalf 147.7 1 4 41.9/ 37.5/ 20.6 Pattel's Virus Ben Ford 146.4 13 5 35.6/ 25.6/ 38.8 The Stormbringer Christian Schmidt 145.5 13 6 28.1/ 10.9/ 61.0 The Fugitive David Moore 145.2 13 7 35.7/ 27.1/ 37.2 Fixed Ken Espiritu 144.2 13 8 34.9/ 26.6/ 38.4 Shadow Christian Schmidt 143.3 10 9 42.7/ 42.4/ 14.9 Zooom... John Metcalf 143.0 6 10 39.4/ 36.3/ 24.4 BiShot Christian Schmidt 142.5 1 11 39.3/ 40.9/ 19.8 Silver Talon 1.2 Edgar 137.7 14 12 30.3/ 23.1/ 46.6 Even Less Innocuous TeamQ3 137.5 2 13 30.0/ 23.1/ 47.0 Freight Train v0.2 David Moore 136.9 13 14 33.6/ 31.3/ 35.1 Twin Christian Schmidt 135.9 13 15 29.9/ 24.6/ 45.5 Less Innocuous Leonardo Humberto 135.2 3 16 34.2/ 33.8/ 32.1 Digital Dragon Christian Schmidt 134.6 13 17 35.3/ 36.3/ 28.4 trefoil 23 226 Steve Gunnell 134.4 23 18 37.3/ 40.6/ 22.1 Galatea Ben Ford 134.1 13 19 38.9/ 43.9/ 17.2 redcode ragamuffin Simon Wainwright 133.9 4 20 27.0/ 22.2/ 50.7 Innocuous John Metcalf 131.8 11 21 38.0/ 46.2/ 15.8 Have No Pity John Metcalf 129.8 1 22 22.4/ 15.6/ 62.0 ;strategy stone/paper John Metcalf 129.2 5 23 28.2/ 29.1/ 42.7 Quicker Zeta Leonardo Humberto 127.3 8 24 21.5/ 15.7/ 62.8 ( 2 x^2 + 3 x + 1 ) / 2 John Metcalf 127.3 4 25 34.0/ 41.4/ 24.5 trefoil 28 558 Steve Gunnell 126.7 13 Age since last issue: 10 ( 69 last issue, 33 the issue before ) New warriors: 11 Turnover/age rate 110% Average age: 8 ( 3 last issue, 46 the issue before ) Average score: 138 ( 143 last issue, 140 the issue before ) The top 25 warriors are represented by just 10 independent authors: Metcalf with 7, Schmidt with 5, Moore with 3, Ford, Gunnell and Humberto with 2 each and everyone else with just one warrior. Fixed, Pattel's Virus and Spooky Wench each had a short time as King before Recycled Bits claimed top spot. Still we have 10 warriors of the same age, down from 20 last issue. _______________________________________________________________________________ 94 - What's New (Sorted by rank and score) # %W / %L / %T Name Author Score Age 2 35.3/ 27.0/ 37.7 Spooky Wench John Metcalf 143.5 0 2 33.3/ 25.0/ 41.6 Puddleglum John Metcalf 141.6 0 7 35.7/ 27.8/ 36.6 Shadow Christian Schmidt 143.6 0 7 36.1/ 36.6/ 27.3 BiShot Christian Schmidt 135.6 0 9 26.7/ 17.7/ 55.7 Redemption John Metcalf 135.7 0 11 26.0/ 21.6/ 52.4 Even Less Innocuous TeamQ3 130.4 1 11 25.6/ 20.9/ 53.5 Less Innocuous Leonardo Humberto 130.3 1 17 38.6/ 45.7/ 15.7 Zooom... John Metcalf 131.6 1 18 21.6/ 15.2/ 63.2 ;strategy stone/paper John Metcalf 127.9 1 20 26.9/ 25.9/ 47.2 RabidWeasel 0.5 WFB 127.9 1 20 35.2/ 46.1/ 18.7 myVamp5.6? Paulsson 124.3 0 20 18.2/ 13.8/ 68.0 ( 2 x^2 + 3 x + 1 ) / 2 John Metcalf 122.6 0 20 34.8/ 47.7/ 17.6 Have No Pity John Metcalf 121.8 0 21 27.0/ 27.6/ 45.4 Quicker Zeta Leonardo Humberto 126.4 1 22 36.3/ 52.1/ 11.6 quatrefoil 2 185 Steve Gunnell 120.5 1 25 34.3/ 48.4/ 17.3 redcode ragamuffin Simon Wainwright 120.3 1 Very few new warriors. Shadow and Spooky Wench are updated. _______________________________________________________________________________ 94 - What's No More (Sorted by age) # %W / %L / %T Name Author Score Age 26 34.4/ 50.9/ 14.7 Silccon M. J. Pihlaja 117.9 22 26 21.6/ 24.7/ 53.6 delay 0.02b 50 bjoern guenzel 118.5 13 26 1.4/ 0.5/ 2.1 The Conqueror Christian Schmidt 6.3 12 26 0.4/ 0.1/ 3.5 Spooky Wench John Metcalf 4.7 9 26 0.6/ 0.8/ 2.6 Fragility John Metcalf 4.4 9 26 35.4/ 50.5/ 14.1 Lost Again! David Moore 120.3 8 26 27.2/ 35.7/ 37.2 Bond, James Bond Ben Ford 118.7 8 26 0.5/ 1.4/ 2.0 Strange Variations John Metcalf 3.7 8 26 33.3/ 48.5/ 18.2 Reconnaissance Ben Ford 118.0 7 26 20.2/ 22.6/ 57.2 RabidWeasel 0.5 WFB 117.9 7 26 32.0/ 46.6/ 21.4 Ice Pick Willie Ben Ford 117.4 6 26 36.8/ 55.0/ 8.2 Boing! John Metcalf 118.7 4 26 2.2/ 0.6/ 1.2 Redemption John Metcalf 7.9 4 26 33.1/ 47.0/ 19.8 myVamp5.6? Paulsson 119.3 3 26 1.4/ 1.4/ 1.3 Shadow Christian Schmidt 5.3 3 26 34.5/ 53.5/ 12.0 quatrefoil 2 185 Steve Gunnell 115.5 2 Lots of ;killing occurred this month... _______________________________________________________________________________ 94 - What's Old # %W / %L / %T Name Author Score Age Nothing old yet :-( _______________________________________________________________________________ OLD HALL OF FAME * means the warrior is still active. Pos Name Author Age Strategy 1 Thermite II Robert Macrae 2262 Qscan -> Bomber 2 Impfinity v4g1 Planar 1993 Stone/imp 3 Jack in the box Beppe Bezzi 1620 P-warrior 4 Tornado 3.0 Beppe Bezzi 1567 Bomber 5 Torch t18 P.Kline 1539 Bomber 6 Chameleon Myer R Bremer 1437 P-warrior 7 Frontwards v2 Steven Morrell 1420 Oneshot 8 Evol Cap 6.6 John Wilkinson 1299 Stone/imp 9 quiz Schitzo 1262 Scanner/bomber 10 T.N.T. Maurizio Vittuari 1204 Bomber 11 Grilled Octopus v0.5 David Boeren 1154 P-warrior 12 Hazy Shade II John Wilkinson 1102 P-warrior 13 Stepping Stone Kurt Franke 1049 Qscan -> Vampire 14 Rosebud Beppe Bezzi 993 Stone/imp 15 Iron Gate 1.5 Wayne Sheppard 926 Scanner 16 T.N.T. pro Maurizio Vittuari 925 Bomber 17 Agony II Stefan Strack 912 Scanner 18 Barrage Anton Marsden 876 Qscan -> Paper 19 Blue Funk Steven Morrell 869 Stone/imp 20 Flurry Anton Marsden 835 Qscan -> P-warrior 21 Thermite 1.0 Robert Macrae 802 Qscan -> Bomber 22 Blue Funk 3 Steven Morrell 766 Stone/imp 23 Night Train Karl Lewin 755 Paper 24 Mirage 1.5 Anton Marsden 736 Scanner/bomber 25 Blizzard Anton Marsden 713 Qscan -> Paper _______________________________________________________________________________ NEW HALL OF FAME * means the warrior is still active. Pos Name Author Age Strategy 1 Probe Anton Marsden 403 Q^2 -> Bomber 2 Blur 2 Anton Marsden 396 Scanner 3 Damage Incorporated Anton Marsden 373 Q^2 -> Bomber 4 Return Of The Jedimp John K W 357 Q^2 -> Stone/imp 5 unrequited love kafka 346 Q^2 -> Paper 6 Impish v0.2 Ian Oversby 345 Stone/imp 7 Gigolo Core Warrior staff 332 Q^2 -> Stone/imp 8 Falcon v0.3 Ian Oversby 275 P-warrior 9 Nine Seven Six M R Bremer 232 Q^2 -> Stone/imp 10 Rosebud Beppe 218 Stone/imp 11 Newt Ian Oversby 216 Q^2 -> Stone/imp 12 Q^2 Miro Anders Ivner 214 Q^2 -> Scanner/bomber 13 Instant Wolf 3.4 Edgar 205 P-warrior 14 Goldfinch P.Kline 201 P-warrior 15 Simple v0.4b Ian Oversby 197 QScan -> Stone/imp 16 Trident^2 John K W 195 Q^2 -> Stone/imp 17 ompega Steven Morrell 189 Stone/imp 18 Frogz Franz 172 Q^2 -> Paper 19 The Machine Anton Marsden 164 Scanner 20 Memories Beppe 152 Scanner 21 Vain Ian Oversby 147 Q^2 -> Stone/imp 22 Head or Tail Christian Schmidt 142 Q^2 -> Paper 23 Electric Head Anton Marsden 140 P-warrior 24 Vigor Ken Espiritu 138 Q^2 -> Paper 25 Fixed Ken Espiritu 135 Q^2 -> Paper _______________________________________________________________________________ Current Status of the Internet Pizza Server Beginner Hill: Hill Specs: coresize: 8000 max. processes: 8000 duration: after 80,000 cycles, a tie is declared. max. entry length: 100 minimum distance: 100 maximum age: At age 100, warriors are retired. rounds fought: 200 instruction set: ICWS '94 Draft # %W / %L / %T Name Author Score Age 1 55.7/ 28.6/ 15.8 Pattel's Virus Ben Ford 182.7 20 2 49.4/ 31.8/ 18.8 Spat the dummy. Steve Gunnell (oh ye 166.9 78 3 47.2/ 38.5/ 14.3 redcode ragamuffin Simon Wainwright 155.9 6 4 32.3/ 16.3/ 51.3 Quicker Zeta Leonardo Humberto 148.3 12 5 39.8/ 32.7/ 27.5 Arsonic C P._V._K. 146.9 95 6 43.8/ 41.1/ 15.2 Fat Man A.S. Mehlos 146.4 92 7 41.5/ 38.8/ 19.7 Sticky taped together 1.2 Steve Gunnell 144.3 89 8 34.9/ 27.2/ 37.9 A man with a Gun Ben Ford 142.7 63 9 29.6/ 17.1/ 53.3 Redemption John Metcalf 142.1 54 10 43.2/ 44.5/ 12.3 fatal lure of pMars Simon Wainwright 142.0 22 11 39.0/ 36.8/ 24.3 No Time To Think A. S. Mehlos 141.2 79 12 30.8/ 21.6/ 47.6 HardCore v0.2b Simon Duff 140.0 18 13 39.5/ 39.3/ 21.2 Fire Master P_.V_.K. 139.7 2 14 32.8/ 26.3/ 40.9 Frusteration II A. S. Mehlos 139.3 82 15 30.4/ 24.1/ 45.4 ModerationRevisited A. S. Mehlos 136.7 98 16 37.2/ 37.9/ 24.9 Red Sand Ken Hubbard 136.6 1 17 32.1/ 30.1/ 37.9 of mirth and merriment Simon Wainwright 134.1 24 18 26.9/ 19.8/ 53.3 Quick Zeta Leonardo Humberto 134.0 17 19 32.9/ 34.9/ 32.2 Ground Zero Ken Hubbard 130.9 5 20 24.4/ 20.2/ 55.4 H-Bomb 9 Josh Yeager 128.6 76 21 24.1/ 20.5/ 55.4 H-Bomb 9k Josh Yeager 127.8 75 22 36.2/ 44.8/ 19.1 Death kiss with a dash of Anders Rosendal 127.6 38 23 27.7/ 29.6/ 42.7 Rocking-Chair 94 v0.33 Leonardo Humberto 125.8 26 24 26.6/ 29.0/ 44.3 SandPaper Leonardo Humberto 124.3 9 25 27.7/ 54.5/ 17.8 v15var 3 257 Steve Gunnell 100.9 3 15 successful challenges since last issue, and only Scanzonato perished of old age. The top five comprises a good cross-section of strategy: 2 p-space, a scanner, a paper and a bomber. Beginners might like to try submitting warriors to one or two of the alternative hills, which are easier to enter than you may think. _______________________________________________________________________________ Current Status of the KOTH.ORG '94 No Pspace Hill: Hill Specs: coresize: 8000 max. processes: 8000 duration: after 80,000 cycles, a tie is declared. max. entry length: 100 minimum distance: 100 rounds fought: 250 instruction set: ICWS '94 Draft, excluding ldp and stp # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 43/ 37/ 21 Boys are Back in Town 1.1 Philip Kendall 149 140 2 42/ 39/ 18 Zooom... John Metcalf 145 14 3 26/ 10/ 64 _romanian_killah_ Costin Bontas rulez 142 107 4 33/ 25/ 42 Vain Ian Oversby 141 215 5 25/ 10/ 65 The Fugitive David Moore 141 217 6 35/ 30/ 35 Fixed Ken Espiritu 140 198 7 34/ 28/ 38 The Stormbringer Christian Schmidt 140 149 8 33/ 25/ 42 Recovery Ian Oversby 140 138 9 34/ 28/ 39 Blacken Ian Oversby 139 125 10 37/ 35/ 29 BiShot v1.0 Christian Schmidt 139 47 11 34/ 30/ 37 Spooky Wench John Metcalf 137 2 12 33/ 29/ 38 Baseline Plus Ken Espiritu 137 196 13 41/ 44/ 15 Win! David Moore 137 113 14 29/ 23/ 47 Even Less Innocuous TeamQ3 136 6 15 30/ 25/ 46 Brigadeer M Joonas Pihlaja 135 134 16 32/ 31/ 37 Puddleglum John Metcalf 134 1 17 34/ 34/ 31 Liquid Fire Christian Schmidt 134 111 18 34/ 34/ 32 qTest P.Kline 134 37 19 33/ 34/ 32 Digital Dragon Christian Schmidt 132 16 20 27/ 22/ 52 ELI-8 John Metcalf 131 17 The no-pspace hill has aged by 40 successful challenges this month, with scanners now ruling the hill once again. Gemini Dream left the hill aged 182 and Fugitive becomes the oldest warrior. Centenarians Head or Tail, Floody River and Red Carpet also departed. 16 of the 20 warriors on this hill use some form of Qscan. _______________________________________________________________________________ Current Standings of the Oversby Autumn Corewar Tournament: : '94 Tiny Grey Build Multi Primo rDist c8001 : Total 1 Pihlaja : 98.66 100.00 100.00 x 84.82 87.48 x 100.00 : 570.80 2 Schmidt : 99.46 70.55 75.41 77.34 50.26 100.00 92.84 x : 515.02 3 Macrae : 87.63 69.55 74.28 100.00 74.87 95.32 54.47 81.59 : 513.69 4 WFB : 91.10 22.42 49.35 56.28 100.00 56.47 x 95.31 : 473.57 5 Khuong : 75.82 60.37 65.86 63.96 x x 42.71 15.56 : 323.47 6 Gunnell : 72.82 46.50 19.46 x 47.12 87.95 x x : 270.06 7 Mehlos : 71.22 29.45 76.11 76.23 x x x x : 252.99 8 Hale : 99.12 66.52 18.68 60.92 x x x x : 245.24 9 Moore :100.00 63.67 62.29 x x x x x : 225.97 10 Yeager : x 24.93 44.22 60.03 34.55 x x x : 163.73 11 Metcalf : x x x x x 39.96 100.00 x : 139.96 12 Kendall : 90.04 35.48 3.21 x x x x x : 128.27 13 Ford : x x x x x x x 70.92 : 70.92 14 Duff : 23.05 30.67 10.51 x x x x x : 63.57 Pihlaja wins the final round with Give it a Proper Name, and wins the tournament with 570 points out of a possible 600. Ford shows it is never too late to participate in these events... Code for all warriors is now available from the tournament's homepage at: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/2443/ _______________________________________________________________________________ The Hint - Optimizing Process Allocation in Parallel-Running Strategies by Christian Schmidt In this month's hint I would like to present a little known method to optimize warriors with two parallel-running strategies. For example, stone/papers, stone/imps and clear/imps. Everyone who has tried to build a stone/imp knows that one of the most important decisions is how long the spiral should be allowed to grow. With weak imps the fast running stone will easily beat a scanner, but will lose badly against an agressive paper. With strong imps the warrior will tie against paper, but due to the slowed down stone it loses against anti-imp scanners. A good stone/imp is somewhere between these extremes. The most common ways to keep control over the time the imp spiral grows are: a) the use of a fixed number of processes for the imp, as would be created by a jmp/add, vector or binary launcher, b) to kill a continuous-imp launcher with a dat-bomb from the stone at a fixed time, c) to delay the start of a continuous-imp launcher until a self- splitting stone has build up enough processes. In all three methods the goal is to slow down and weaken the imp, so the stone runs faster. However, there is another possiblility. Instead of slowing down the imp, speed up the stone. Accelerate the stone by launching multiple processes into it. As far as I know the first example of this technique involved in a stone/imp was Alien and in a clear/imp Justin Kao's Dust 0.7 and later Digitalis. In all cases the add/jmp-launcher starts both, the imp and the stone (Alien) or the d-clear (Dust, Digitalis). To introduce the faster and smaller continuous-imp launcher into this warriors the stone (or clear) must now launch separatly. Instead of a: jmp stone ;----> 1 process for the stone it could be used for example: spl stone jmp stone ;----> 2 processes for the stone or maybe: spl 2 spl stone jmp stone ;----> 3 processes for the stone Every combination is possible. One advatage is the relatively easy optimization of the ratio of processes in the stone and imp. An additional acceleration of the stone is possible by using a spl #0 instruction in front of it. This helps gain a lot of extra points... All of the discussed improvements are used for The Stormbringer, where the stone is Carbonite. The big advantage against other stone/imps is, that it is very small and extremly fast. The only disadvantage is that there is no real core-clear at the end of the bombing phase. ;redcode-94 ;name The Stormbringer ;author Christian Schmidt ;strategy q^2 -> stone/imp ;assert 1 org start QS EQU (0-200) QD EQU (0+100) QB EQU (start-350) CR EQU (fnd-which) datz EQU (table-3) GAP equ 8 REP equ 15 cBptr equ 3001-2 impoff equ 627 impsize equ 2667 qinc dat >(-1)*GAP*2, >GAP dat 9*QS, 1*QS table: dat 5*QS, 2*QS dat 13*QS, 17*QS P: add.f table,table slow: add.ab *P,fnd fast: add.b @P,@-1 which: sne.i datz,@fnd add.ab #QD,fnd add.ba fnd, fnd qbo mov.i qinc, @fnd mov.i qinc, *fnd fnd mov.i (-1)*(GAP/2),@QB sub.x qinc, fnd djn.b qbo, #REP jmp cBoot, }-300 start: seq.i QB+QS*0,QB+QS*0+QD jmp which, 0 seq.i QB+QS*2,QB+QS*2+QD jmp fast, 0 seq.i QB+QS*1,QB+QS*1+QD jmp fast,

P seq.i QB+QS*7,QB+QS*7+QD jmp slow, 0 seq.i QB+QS*6,QB+QS*6+QD jmp slow,

P seq.i QB+QS*11,QB+QS*11+QD jmp slow, {P seq.i QB+QS*15,QB+QS*15+QD jmp slow, }P seq.i QB+QS*10,QB+QS*10+QD djn.f slow, P seq.i QB+QS*5,QB+QS*5+QD jmp >fast, 0 seq.i QB+QS*9,QB+QS*9+QD jmp >fast, {P seq.i QB+QS*13,QB+QS*13+QD jmp >fast, }P seq.i QB+QS*14,QB+QS*14+QD jmp P, 0 seq.i QB+QS*8,QB+QS*8+QD jmp P,

3 processes for the stone cSp2 spl #0, #0 ;---> extra boost for the stone cSp spl #0, <-1151+3 mov 197, cAd-(197*3500) cAd add.ab {0, }0 djn.f -2, <-1151 cBomb dat >-1, >1 for 19-2 dat 0, 0 rof pump spl #1, >prime prime mov.i imp, impoff-4 add.f #impsize+1, ptr ptr jmp pump+impoff-(impsize+1), >-200 imp mov.i #impsize, *0 Using exactly the same method I created Digital Dragon (everybody will see the similarity to The Stormbringer ;-) with a d-clear. But instead of the 3pt imps I used here 13pt imp. I've used this because it gave the best results on the hill. Though it isn't as lethal as Digitalis 4, it loses much less against q^2 -> papers due to it's smaller size and faster launching. ;redcode-94 ;name Digital Dragon ;author Christian Schmidt ;strategy q^2 -> d-clear + 13pt imps ;assert 1 org start QS EQU (0-200) QD EQU 100 QB EQU (start-350) CR EQU (fnd-which) datz EQU (table-3) GAP equ 8 REP equ 15 impoff equ 627+200 impsize equ 5091 bptr1 equ 1800 qinc dat >(-1)*GAP*2, >GAP dat 9*QS, 1*QS table: dat 5*QS, 2*QS dat 13*QS, 17*QS P: add.f table,table slow: add.ab *P,fnd fast: add.b @P,@-1 which: sne.i datz,@fnd add.ab #QD,fnd add.ba fnd, fnd qbo mov.i qinc, @fnd mov.i qinc, *fnd fnd mov.i (-1)*(GAP/2),@QB sub.x qinc, fnd djn.b qbo, #REP jmp boot, }-300 start: seq.i QB+QS*0,QB+QS*0+QD jmp which, 0 ; 0 seq.i QB+QS*2,QB+QS*2+QD jmp fast, 0 ; E seq.i QB+QS*1,QB+QS*1+QD jmp fast,

P ; F seq.i QB+QS*7,QB+QS*7+QD jmp slow, 0 ; BE seq.i QB+QS*6,QB+QS*6+QD jmp slow,

P ; BF seq.i QB+QS*11,QB+QS*11+QD jmp slow, {P ; AE seq.i QB+QS*15,QB+QS*15+QD jmp slow, }P ; CE seq.i QB+QS*10,QB+QS*10+QD djn.f slow, P ; AD seq.i QB+QS*5,QB+QS*5+QD jmp >fast, 0 ; B seq.i QB+QS*9,QB+QS*9+QD jmp >fast, {P ; A seq.i QB+QS*13,QB+QS*13+QD jmp >fast, }P ; C seq.i QB+QS*14,QB+QS*14+QD jmp P, 0 ; BBEE seq.i QB+QS*8,QB+QS*8+QD jmp P,

6 processes for the d-clear ptr dat 0, 2150 clrb dat >2667, 25 clear spl #0, >ptr-16 loop mov clrb-16, >ptr-16 cc djn.f loop, >ptr-16 bptr3 dat cc+1, boot2+bptr1+19 for 19-2 dat 0, 0 rof pump spl #1, >prime prime mov.i imp, impoff-4 add.f #impsize+1, iptr iptr jmp pump+impoff-(impsize+1), >-200 imp mov.i #impsize, *0 Finally, with this method it is now also possible to combine a stone with a paper, in such a way, the stone dominates in the beginning until the paper becomes dominant. The first task is to find a 'pocket' for the stone, where it survives the paper until close to the end of the battle. To do this, run the paper alone and seach core to find the location of pockets of initial core. Now you must check in which of the pocket the stone will gain the most points, and what ratio of processes the stone needs. I found that the easiest way is to launch the stone is with the paper launcher. For Shadow I've used Paul Kline's RetinA, which gave by far the best results. Shape used for example my paper from Head or Tail. ;redcode-94 ;name Shadow ;author Christian Schmidt ;strategy q^2 -> stone/paper ;strategy v3 modified stone, now faster ;strategy v3.1 better pocket for the stone ;assert 1 org start QS equ (0-200) QD equ 100 QB equ (start-350) CR equ (fnd-which) datz equ (table-3) GAP equ 8 REP equ 15 cBptr equ (1724-66);973 spcsz equ 2381;2382 impsz equ (127*37) ;2794 qinc dat >(-1)*GAP*2, >GAP dat 9*QS, 1*QS table: dat 5*QS, 2*QS dat 13*QS, 17*QS P: add.f table, table slow: add.ab *P, fnd fast: add.b @P, @-1 which: sne.i datz, @fnd add.ab #QD, fnd add.ba fnd, fnd qbo mov.i qinc, @fnd mov.i qinc, *fnd fnd mov.i (-1)*(GAP/2),@QB sub.x qinc, fnd djn.b qbo, #REP jmp cBoot, }-300 start: seq.i QB+QS*0,QB+QS*0+QD jmp which, 0 seq.i QB+QS*2,QB+QS*2+QD jmp fast, 0 seq.i QB+QS*1,QB+QS*1+QD jmp fast,

P seq.i QB+QS*7,QB+QS*7+QD jmp slow, 0 seq.i QB+QS*6,QB+QS*6+QD jmp slow,

P seq.i QB+QS*11,QB+QS*11+QD jmp slow, {P seq.i QB+QS*15,QB+QS*15+QD jmp slow, }P seq.i QB+QS*10,QB+QS*10+QD djn.f slow, P seq.i QB+QS*5,QB+QS*5+QD jmp >fast, 0 seq.i QB+QS*9,QB+QS*9+QD jmp >fast, {P seq.i QB+QS*13,QB+QS*13+QD jmp >fast, }P seq.i QB+QS*14,QB+QS*14+QD jmp P, 0 seq.i QB+QS*8,QB+QS*8+QD jmp P,

1 process for the stone cSp2 spl #0, #0 cSp spl #0, <-1151+3 mov 197, cAd-(197*3500) cAd add.ab {0, }0 djn.f -2, <-1151 cBomb dat >-1, >1 rStart spl 2, <400 spl 1, <400 spl 1, <400 cStart spl rCell1+cBptr-1, <402 ;---> 6 processes for the stone rCell1 spl @0, spcsz mov }rCell1, >rCell1 rCell2 spl @0, impsz mov }rCell2, >rCell2 spl rCell2, {rCell2 mov.i #2*spcsz, }-spcsz*1 mov.i #2*spcsz, }-spcsz*1 mov.i #2*impsz, }-impsz*1 I hope I have been able to show some new aspects of these interesting strategies. _______________________________________________________________________________ Questions? Concerns? Comments? Complaints? Mail them to people who care. Authors: Beppe Bezzi , Anton Marsden , Philip Kendall and John Metcalf From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 11:35:00 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q8Z0W13498 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:35:00 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q8YwV17113 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:34:59 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA00862; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BD90E1D.33804E27@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Pizza MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Err...is Pizza dead? -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 11:37:33 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q8bWW06675 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:37:32 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q8bUV17343 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:37:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA00903; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9rb3os$lnu$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: mmoulton@vt.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Michael S. Moulton" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Pizza Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ANSI_X3.4-1968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: In article <3BD90E1D.33804E27@hotmail.com>, "Winston Bean" wrote: > Err...is Pizza dead? > -Winston It seems to be. No idea if it's coming back, but as you can see on the web site it's been many months since it's worked. From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 11:40:15 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q8eFW16279 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:40:15 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9Q8eDV14452 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:40:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA00935; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BD90D0B.D7B36253@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: TestWarrior Help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hi all. My name is Winston Featherly-Bean (AKA WFB). Haven't played since '98, but I'm going to attempt to ease back into the game; going to try and do better than 12-year-old me. Not off to the greatest start. I'm having a little trouble with the TestWarrior app (probably my fault, rather than a bug). After I configure everything and tell it to test, I get an error message saying '**error opening scores' or something akin to that. I'm assuming I'm just missing the file, but I don't know what it's called so can't make a new one. If anyone could set me straight I'd appreciate it. BTW, why did a CoreWarrior from '98 get posted today? Glad it did, anyhow. Saw my name in an old tourny, swelled with pride, and decided to have another go. Thanks. -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 23:32:06 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9QKW6W17811 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:32:06 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9QKW5V31421 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:32:05 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05093; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:30:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:30:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <129.699e629.290ad655@aol.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: QuickTransit@aol.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: QuickTransit@aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 10/25/01 7:06:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com writes: << Finally, posting the whole concept at once(like what kline did) helps start the conversation. If nothing's right in it, everything will change! >> It may help start the conversation, but it also establishes a basis on which to have the conversation. If there are problems with the assumptions in there, it can be pretty difficult to root them out - you can end up having to start over basically from scratch several different times. That's a waste of time and creativity. The ecology idea may be a good one, but (and again, this is my perception, so if it is unkind I apologize) there's been no exploration of the gameplay justification for it - it sprang fully-grown from one person's mind. How do we know that that one person thought of everything, or at least all the key points? How do we know that the proposal is better than what COULD be done with changing Corewar? How do we know it is better than the existing game? The basis for conversation should ideally be something that people are confident is an improvement in gameplay and game depth - if you aren't confident of at least that much, then changing things is something of a waste. (If I keep talking like this though, somebody's going to ask me what I suggest doing instead. I have no real suggestions right now. I'm just pointing out what I see to be real or potential problems, in the hopes that they can be avoided, because I liked Corewar once and I want to have fun with it again.) From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 23:38:10 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9QKc9W19485 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:38:10 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9QKc8V15433 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:38:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05218; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:36:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <67.1bdd5625.290ad30e@aol.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: QuickTransit@aol.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: QuickTransit@aol.com To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 10/25/01 8:06:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ff95@dial.pipex.com writes: << Yeah, throwing in weightings was not a smart idea, because it is not fundamental enough to affect whether the idea stands or falls. In my defense, though, it was at least a positive suggestion? >> I honestly don't know, partly because I didn't take the time to think through all the implications. "positive" in the sense of looking for improvements - of course; "positive" in the sense of actually having the seeds of real improvements - I don't think it's possible to tell, which is part of the problem. (Does this mailing list auto-post to the newsgroup and vice versa? Interesting. This AOL account is going to be going away in a few days - I'm still getting a regular newsreader set up - so there might be some bounced mail.) From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Oct 26 23:38:12 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9QKcCW28739 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:38:12 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9QKcAV10552 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:38:11 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05241; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Core Warrior 72 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of John > Metcalf > Sent: 25 octobre, 2001 21:02 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Core Warrior 72 > > > .xX$$x. > .x$$$$$$$x. > d$$$$$$$$$$$ > ,$$$$$$$P' `P' , . > $$$$$$P' ' .d b > $$$$$P b ,$$x ,$$x ,$$x ,$$b $$. > Y$$$$' `$. $$$$$$. $$$$$$ $$P~d$. d$$$b d d$$$ > `$$$$ ,$$ $$$$$$$b $$$P `$ $$$b.$$b `Y$$$d$d$$$' . . a . a > a .aa . a > `$$$ ,$$$,$$' `$$$ $$$' ' $$P$XX$' `$$$$$$$$$ .dP' `$'$ > `$'$ , $''$ `$'$ > `Y$b ,d$$$P `$b,d$P' `$$. `$$. , `$$P $$$' Y $. $ $ > $ Y..P $ > `$$$$$$$' $$$P' `$$b `$$$P `P `$' `Y'k. $. $. > $. $$' $. > > Issue 72 > 13 April, 1999 UH!? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 27 01:30:14 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9QMUDW04348 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:30:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9QMUCV14239 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:30:12 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA06016; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:24:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: QuickTransit@aol.com [mailto:QuickTransit@aol.com] > Sent: 26 octobre, 2001 11:08 > To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com; corewar-l@koth.org > Subject: Re: Changing the Game > > > In a message dated 10/25/01 7:06:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com writes: > > << Finally, posting the whole concept at once(like what kline > did) helps start > the conversation. If nothing's right in it, everything will change! >> > It may help start the conversation, but it also establishes a > basis on which > to have the conversation. If there are problems with the assumptions in > there, it can be pretty difficult to root them out - you can end > up having to > start over basically from scratch several different times. > That's a waste of > time and creativity. > > The ecology idea may be a good one, but (and again, this is my > perception, so > if it is unkind I apologize) there's been no exploration of the gameplay > justification for it - it sprang fully-grown from one person's > mind. How do > we know that that one person thought of everything, or at least > all the key > points? How do we know that the proposal is better than what > COULD be done > with changing Corewar? How do we know it is better than the > existing game? > The basis for conversation should ideally be something that people are > confident is an improvement in gameplay and game depth - if you aren't > confident of at least that much, then changing things is > something of a waste. > > (If I keep talking like this though, somebody's going to ask me what I > suggest doing instead. I have no real suggestions right now. I'm just > pointing out what I see to be real or potential problems, in the > hopes that > they can be avoided, because I liked Corewar once and I want to > have fun with > it again.) I see your point. IMO, it WILL help, because it allows for more specialized warriors, etc. Also, i don't know if you've seen what tournaments can do, but having a different flavor of corewar always brings some more interest in the game. So, i tihnk that we can at least consider it like a quick tournament. Maybe we could start a small ongoing tourney for ~2 weeks, and see what it looks like after that. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 27 01:30:15 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9QMUEW05588 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:30:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9QMUDV14243 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:30:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA06039; Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of > QuickTransit@aol.com > Sent: 26 octobre, 2001 16:37 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: Changing the Game [snip] > (Does this mailing list auto-post to the newsgroup and vice versa? > Interesting. This AOL account is going to be going away in a few > days - I'm > still getting a regular newsreader set up - so there might be > some bounced > mail.) Yes it does. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 27 08:33:40 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9R5XdW30445 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 08:33:39 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9R5XcV01709 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 08:33:38 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA08625; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BDA3B7F.611BCE91@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Pizza MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > > Err...is Pizza dead? > > -Winston > > It seems to be. No idea if it's coming back, but as you can see on the > web site it's been many months since it's worked. So, is nop and the -x's the only 94 hills left? -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 27 09:33:23 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9R6XNW01793 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:33:23 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9R6XLV24044 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:33:21 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA08995; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 02:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 02:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BDA4692.D68E17F0@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > And here is my idea - let's create a corewar language which supports > dividing a program into modules. In every cell in the arena there > won't be one instruction but one function. Though what you've come up with is interesting, I concur with Moulton. Changing Redcode creates an entirely different game--one which may have its merits; nonetheless it is not an improved Core War but a new Core War. Admittedly, I am still in the process of catching up with and re-learning all that is Core War, but IMHO there's still plenty to squeeze out of Redcode. Creating (a) new hill(s) with creative paramaters, rules, and concepts will undoubtedly foster (re-ignite?) creativity. I'm convinced more group discussions along the vein of Kline's proposal will result in something wonderful. I doubt there are many other 'games' with such creative, intelligent players. There's no way in hell we won't be able to conceive and hash out a fresh, viable, implementable idea. -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 27 18:34:14 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RFYEW16521 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:34:14 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RFYDV16948 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:34:13 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA13694; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:32:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:32:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BDAC287.8050701@yahoo.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: waknuk@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Philip Thorne To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Pizza Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Winston Bean wrote: >>>Err...is Pizza dead? >>>-Winston >>> >>It seems to be. No idea if it's coming back, but as you can see on the >>web site it's been many months since it's worked. >> > > So, is nop and the -x's the only 94 hills left? > -Winston > There are redcode hills available at http://corewars.sourceforge.net in amongst the proprietory stuff. Although not a specifically beginner hill I surmise that the Redcode Standard hill is relatively weak as it's mostly populated with "evolved" programs. It's possible to post via email or directly via a form. Either way you get no direct feedback so must check - the hill to see if you got on it - the archive to see if you didn't [it will be published] It has a feature whereby you can select "like" warriors from the archive and play them against one another via an applet. If you do so you'll need to manually stop it once it's reduced to one process. Philb From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 27 19:34:25 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RGYPW08708 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:34:25 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RGYNV08622 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 19:34:24 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA14056; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:32:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:32:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BDACE8C.7000500@yahoo.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: waknuk@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Philip Thorne To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Robert Macrae wrote: > [...] > The proposal should generate a more complex ecology than we see on the > current hills, with greater room for specialists. > If it does, it will increase the range challenges available -- there will > be in effect 10 different avenues onto the hills, each requiring something > different. [...] I imagine players would want/try to be represented in more than one form on the hill so for example you might have an RM-Eagle, RM-Mouse etc. Coding to create such chains would be an interesting challenge - trying to coordinate your various beasties so they helped one another stay on the hill (by for-example having food-kin roll-over 100% to your new submissions). Publishing live warriors would inhibit such (self) team-work strategies although perhaps PK's suggestion to hide EQN's would help. Other than that with respect to newcomers having more avenues the proposal is little different from a) creating 10 separate hills with the restriction that a player can only be represented on a single hill, or b) a single large [beginner] hill. Philb From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 27 20:34:32 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RHYVW13940 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:34:31 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RHYUV10395 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:34:30 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA14421; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:33:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:33:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: metcalf@uboot.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: metcalf@uboot.com (John Metcalf) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Core Warrior 72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hi, Needless to say, I didn't repost this. It must have been lost in the ether somewhere for the last two years. Does anyone have any ideas for CW80. I lost everything when my laptop was stolen. The insurance provided a nice new one, but I lost about half of my various projects. Does anyone have the results from Pizza's 94 and 94b for a DAT 0,0 submission? Regards, John From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 27 20:34:33 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RHYXW14511 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:34:33 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RHYVV10399 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:34:31 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA14440; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BDAE570.7020004@yahoo.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: waknuk@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Philip Thorne To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Robert Macrae wrote: > [...] > The proposal addresses the problem pretty effectively. In a purely public > hill you can always, if you wish, spend time tweaking the constants of one > public warrior to edge a little further up the table, but the extra > complexity should give room for far greater tactical innovation. > > The scoring and competitive landscape are very far from cosmetic. Redcode > is a tool used to win some competition. In a knockout, for example, it > doesn't matter by how much you beat your opponent so a "good" warrior is > one that is hard to beat. In a hill, by contrast, every point counts so a > "good" warrior is generally one that wins by a large amount against some > warriors. Change the scoring, move the goalposts, and you change the whole > game. This changes the whole experience of coding. > Stepping back a bit, perhaps QT inspired (?!), I'm thinking about what the eco-system gives us. One thing is the ability to choose ones prey i.e. one gets to code a warrior geared specifically to other types so it's attack score can be maximised. ... wouldn't one get a similar effect more simply by changing the normal hill scoring to only take, say, the top 10 results into account per warrior when comparing scores? Given that the eco-system can only specify it's food not prey I think it may be a move towards the hill definition of "good" although I recognise, and like, that there's more to it than that. > [...] Philb From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 27 20:34:37 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RHYbW00082 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:34:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RHYZV10408 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:34:36 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA14460; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 13:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BDAE5D5.5040805@yahoo.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: waknuk@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Philip Thorne To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: P. Kline wrote: > In a real ecosystem all forms do not struggle against each other, they > find niches where they feed on a small number of forms and are in turn > eaten by others. The goal is not to dominate but to survive, so here > is a thought experiment. > [...] > form D - stone-imps (porcupines) > [...] > with the appropriate ;food lists. The other seven forms are not > specified but will be sorted out after time through competition. > Nice. How about a "rabbit" form for beginners? The challenge would be to prevent them multiplying overly while making it easy enough for a large quantity to survive. For example having no predators other than themselves or making them the 11th item in the food chain for all other forms and putting a limit on their number. If you don't like the idea of cannibal rabbits there's always "slime-mold" :-) It could also be the default form - I think useful to have one. Once all 10 forms were present for new forms to enter the game one of the existing ones, say X. would have to be made extinct. This might be do-able by introducing multiple clones of a powerful X-eater - would that work? Ethical/Desirable? Maybe a limit on the # of representatives per species would help. Of-course we don't have to solve everything in advance - a prototype system could always be tweaked. I do think it'll be hard to maintain cohesiveness within a form and that this is required, in the main, for the idea to work. Philb From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Oct 27 21:34:51 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RIYpW15917 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:34:51 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9RIYnV12045 for ; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:34:50 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA14842; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:33:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 14:33:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BDAF24F.1090505@yahoo.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: waknuk@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Philip Thorne To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Feedback / Source-hiding - was Changing the Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: P. Kline wrote: > [...] > I'll make some assertions to push things along: > > 4. Hiding source code discourages newcomers and long-time players. > [...] That seems unanimous but wouldn't the viewpoint change depending upon the reasons people play the game. e.g. - technical approach, someone who want's to produce the perfect/optimal/beautiful warrior = would like to see and show all code ? might be able to get by from archive & posted code - competive approach. Want's to be THE KOTH = would like to see others code, hide own - goal oriented. e.g. wants to put paid to "nPaper II" = would like to see code ? could possibly send exploratory warriors to the hill solely to probe a particular warriors defeneses. Perhaps this happens - I've never submitted to KOTH so don't know. [X] - arm-chair critic with no experience/talent At present I find myself partly in the 2nd [?] category. My dream would be to perfect a warrior on the quiet then launch to devastating effect on an unsuspecting hill where it would have a long and glorious reign. I liked your idea from another post: "Another idea is to have the source of players dropped from the Hill put into archive automatically, creating a fossil record." but realise that for the ecosystem one needs some way to encourage fair play. [X] I do see a general corewar problem in that it might be awfully difficult to counter a hidden warrior because of lack of feedback. To counter this I suggest: a) provide a snapshot of a warrior battle akin to final (random?) pmars screen output. Perhaps visually or in a file form that's easy to recreate. b) something like the ability in the "other" sourceforge site [no I'm not in advertising and would like pizza] whereby you can select warriors and have them fight in an applet within your browser. This way one could learn something but the granularity is too low to see everything. The obsessive could run multiple off-hill battles this way. Philb From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 28 03:35:10 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9S0Z9W05422 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 03:35:09 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9S0Z7V20400 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 03:35:07 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA16909; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BDB40AB.BB65CE10@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Pizza MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > There are redcode hills available at http://corewars.sourceforge.net Thanks. I'll check it out. -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 28 03:36:38 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9S0abW05432 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 03:36:37 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9S0aZV20443 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 03:36:35 +0300 (EEST) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA16943; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BDB4169.330E6A0D@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > Let each participant identify itself by "form" - grasshopper, cat, eagle...- > and also identify a number of forms that it wants to eat. Wouldn't having pre-set 'prey' for each form lead to more distinct strategies for each form and more diverse strategies over all? -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 28 04:51:04 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9S2oVW16276 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 04:50:31 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9S2oUV32317 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 04:50:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17742; Sat, 27 Oct 2001 22:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 22:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Feedback / Source-hiding - was Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Philip > Thorne > Sent: 27 octobre, 2001 14:33 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Feedback / Source-hiding - was Changing the Game > > > P. Kline wrote: > > > [...] > > I'll make some assertions to push things along: > > > > 4. Hiding source code discourages newcomers and long-time players. > > [...] > > > That seems unanimous but wouldn't the viewpoint change depending upon > the reasons people play the game. e.g. > - technical approach, someone who want's to produce > the perfect/optimal/beautiful warrior > = would like to see and show all code > ? might be able to get by from archive & posted code > - competive approach. Want's to be THE KOTH > = would like to see others code, hide own > - goal oriented. e.g. wants to put paid to "nPaper II" > = would like to see code > ? could possibly send exploratory warriors to the hill > solely to probe a particular warriors defeneses. > Perhaps this happens - I've never submitted to KOTH > so don't know. [X] > - arm-chair critic with no experience/talent [snip] Overall, it seems in the interest of the advancement of the game to see the source. Yes, it is possible to submit warriors for the sole purpose of exploring the hill. That's what -test is for. I think that that type of scouting has been done before. BTW, what do you mean by "put paid to"? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 28 07:32:47 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9S5WlW26269 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:32:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9S5WjV26092 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 07:32:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA18700; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3BDB86A2.F7D18864@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: 'Lil Help Needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Woowee, this is embarrassing. I'm having some trouble with my e-mail app (Outlook Express. I know, I know. I apologize for using Windows.) Occasionally, a submition to koth comes back with an error like this: Error in line 39: '------=_NextPart_000_021A_01C15F22.5E916C00--' Unrecognized or improper placement of token: '-' Number of errors: 1 I can't figure out why that's being added on (assuming it's the e-mail program). For a particular *.red file, it will always happen (ie., not a one-time error). I tried using a web based account to send it in to koth, and that didn't work either (the other account also used MS software, if that has anything to do with it). I realize this is a pretty lame (not to mention off-topic) question to ask, but I'm pretty hopeless =). Thanks for any help you can give. BTW, sorry about bombarding the 94nop hill. I sorta forgot about -test :p. -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 28 08:32:49 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9S6WnW29232 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:32:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9S6WmV25068 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:32:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA19051; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:31:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 01:31:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3BDB9883.A960A107@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: -b MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Do we have enough active new players to warrant a beginner's hill on koth.org? If so, could anyone set that up? Or is Pizza going to be re-incarnated one of these days? -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 28 12:33:14 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9SAXEW13284 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:33:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9SAXCV03381 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 12:33:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA21837; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 05:31:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 05:31:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3BDBCF72.B44A3AD9@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: 'Lil Help Needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: NM, I figured it out. Anything that uses 'org x' instead of 'end x' gets messed. Who knew? -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Oct 28 17:45:50 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9SFjoW06875 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:45:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9SFjnV32734 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:45:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA23432; Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:43:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:43:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: 'Lil Help Needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Winston > Bean > Sent: 28 octobre, 2001 05:32 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: 'Lil Help Needed > > > NM, I figured it out. Anything that uses 'org x' instead of 'end x' > gets messed. Who knew? 1. Send plaintext email 2. If there are any chances of something following your code, always end the warrior with an "end" line. 8) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 29 15:48:48 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TDmmW18964 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:48:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TDmjV20328 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:48:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02287; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:47:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:47:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200110290500.AAA18724@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 10/29/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/29/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Oct 28 04:23:15 EST 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 33 40 2 fclear Brian Haskin 31 68 3 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 25 84 4 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 24 23 5 test John Metcalf 20 12 6 QuiVa John Metcalf 18 177 7 8thTest Gino Oblena 17 15 8 Her Majesty P.Kline 12 103 9 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 12 2 10 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 9 1 11 Ferret Winston Featherly-Be 2 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 29 15:48:56 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TDmtW13791 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:48:55 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TDmsV06727 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:48:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02313; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:47:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:47:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200110290500.AAA18732@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 10/29/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/29/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Oct 28 08:13:18 EST 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 36/ 22/ 41 Inky Ian Oversby 150 178 2 35/ 24/ 41 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 146 461 3 33/ 22/ 45 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 145 288 4 31/ 20/ 49 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 142 699 5 32/ 25/ 42 Olivia Ben Ford 139 427 6 41/ 42/ 17 Behemot Michal Janeczek 139 522 7 41/ 44/ 15 Hazy Lazy ... Steve Gunnell 138 41 8 35/ 31/ 34 Blacken Ian Oversby 138 946 9 33/ 27/ 40 Uninvited John Metcalf 138 381 10 32/ 27/ 41 Revival Fire P.Kline 138 167 11 43/ 50/ 6 He Scans Alone x P.Kline 137 27 12 29/ 26/ 45 Qtest Christian Schmidt 132 221 13 41/ 51/ 8 Test S M1 None 130 25 14 29/ 28/ 43 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 130 122 15 23/ 16/ 61 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 130 399 16 32/ 36/ 32 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 128 400 17 22/ 17/ 61 Mr Sheen Test B 8 Steve Gunnell 126 4 18 39/ 52/ 9 Kenshin test 21 Steve Gunnell 126 1 19 36/ 47/ 17 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 126 656 20 37/ 53/ 10 hTest P.Kline 121 2 21 36/ 53/ 11 G8 Winston Featherly-Be 119 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 29 15:48:58 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TDmwW07711 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:48:58 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TDmuV06743 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:48:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02361; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:47:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:47:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200110290500.AAA18720@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 10/29/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/29/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Fri Oct 19 17:36:37 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 19/ 48 Freight Train David Moore 147 78 2 32/ 20/ 48 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 145 35 3 31/ 19/ 50 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 143 17 4 29/ 20/ 50 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 77 5 21/ 8/ 71 qenig1 test John Metcalf 135 1 6 39/ 44/ 17 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 134 74 7 34/ 34/ 32 PacMan David Moore 133 107 8 35/ 37/ 28 Stasis David Moore 132 185 9 38/ 44/ 19 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 132 115 10 30/ 28/ 42 Frog Sticker P.Kline 132 27 11 23/ 16/ 61 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 130 91 12 24/ 18/ 58 Jinglo John Metcalf 130 2 13 25/ 22/ 53 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 129 33 14 23/ 18/ 59 Test I Ian Oversby 128 134 15 32/ 36/ 32 Tangle Trap David Moore 127 151 16 23/ 20/ 57 Evoltmp 88 John K W 127 128 17 34/ 41/ 25 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 126 353 18 35/ 46/ 19 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 125 403 19 35/ 47/ 18 ig Wayne Sheppard 124 5 20 12/ 3/ 85 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 121 6 21 4/ 54/ 43 VLIV'88 Wayne Sheppard 54 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 29 15:49:02 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TDn2W12988 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:49:02 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TDn0V06767 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 15:49:01 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02337; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:47:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:47:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200110290500.AAA18728@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 10/29/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 10/29/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Oct 4 10:23:04 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 35/ 19/ 45 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 152 31 2 41/ 33/ 26 Black Moods Ian Oversby 148 95 3 29/ 15/ 56 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 144 39 4 42/ 41/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 143 59 5 34/ 29/ 37 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 140 28 6 36/ 35/ 29 Ogre Christian Schmidt 138 47 7 22/ 7/ 71 Denial David Moore 138 40 8 30/ 24/ 46 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 136 38 9 34/ 32/ 34 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 136 99 10 20/ 7/ 73 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 133 168 11 23/ 13/ 64 Kin John Metcalf 133 7 12 18/ 4/ 77 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 132 116 13 19/ 6/ 75 Black Box v1.1 JKW 132 62 14 23/ 19/ 58 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 128 121 15 28/ 34/ 38 test CS 123 56 16 32/ 45/ 24 Pagan John K W 119 153 17 19/ 20/ 62 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 118 120 18 22/ 25/ 53 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 118 26 19 19/ 21/ 60 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 117 1 20 26/ 46/ 28 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 106 5 21 12/ 86/ 1 my sucky warrior john q. redcoder 39 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 29 17:31:50 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TFVnW28701 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:31:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TFVmV17255 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:31:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA03097; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:29:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:29:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <92b0a3d6.0110290630.43f20e20@posting.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu (P. Kline) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Changing the Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Philip Thorne wrote in message news:< <...> > Once all 10 forms were present for new forms to enter the game one of > the existing ones, say X. would have to be made extinct. This might be > do-able by introducing multiple clones of a powerful X-eater - would > that work? Ethical/Desirable? Maybe a limit on the # of representatives > per species would help. Of-course we don't have to solve everything in > advance - a prototype system could always be tweaked. > > I do think it'll be hard to maintain cohesiveness within a form and that > this is required, in the main, for the idea to work. Multiple clones of a powerful X-eater would put the X-form at risk for population collapse, and create incentive for powerful X-eater-eaters. There was a time on the 94-nop hill when 5/6 people had copied the same qscan into their programs, that allowed a program like RetroQ to reverse engineer and kill them very easily. It's the natural way :-). > I do think it'll be hard to maintain cohesiveness within a form and that > this is required, in the main, for the idea to work. Camouflage and mimicry are ubiquitous in nature, for both hiding and hunting. Say we populate the hill with 100 versions of stone-imps, not especially deadly qscan-share-the-wins cooperatives. Like grass on the prairie. They are all type A and they all have A at the top of their diet. A good si killer might be nPaper. Does it make sense for nPaper to identify himself as form B? If he does it makes him stick out and he becomes a target for B-feeders, and he can get just as many si-fights by declaring himself to be form A, so maybe no one would dare declare a different form, safer if we are all A feeding on A. On the other hand, there is a whole B-J space opportunity to populate. I might put up 10 versions of scanners, all B's feeding on B, go-for-broke win-lose cooperators. That could crowd out 10 A's and destableise things there. Then I might put up 10 tiny stones, all form C feeding on C and B. Then 10 papers all D feeding on C, A, and D. Then 10 scanners all E feeding on D, B, and E. Cooperation in win-sharing may be a strong enough incentive for programs to consistently (there is no 'honesty' in nature :-) identify themselves. When the hill becomes sufficiently muddled, I might still put up a block of 10 or 20 cooperators all the same form preying on each other. BTW, I don't see this as a bad thing. I can only continue to do this until people respond with appropriate predators and it might be an interesting challenge for one person to hold all 100 spots for more than 24 hours. The forms would change their meaning over time, 'A' might be stone-imp one year and mostly paper the next. It doesn't seem workable for there to be unlimited forms like in the real world, therefore the form-types would be recycled over time. The implication is that ;food lists gradually become obsolete, therefore no program can stay on the hill without adapting. An author who puts up a strong program and walks away for a year won't find it there when he comes back :-) Paul Kline pk6811s@acad.drake.edu From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Oct 29 23:50:15 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TLoBW05924 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 23:50:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9TLoAV07679 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 23:50:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05360; Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:48:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:48:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: adamow@if.pw.edu.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Lukasz Adamowski To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Pizza MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Winston Bean wrote: > > There are redcode hills available at http://corewars.sourceforge.net > > Thanks. I'll check it out. > -Winston I did check it and even get onto multiwarrior hill. Finally! Thanks for the URL also. Lukasz From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Oct 31 05:35:20 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9V3ZKW32203 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 05:35:20 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9V3ZJV22292 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 05:35:19 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17583; Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:33:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:33:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3BDF66E6.30D11902@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Look What I Found MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I dug up some dirt on Kline (may he live a thousand years). Wonder what was going on here =p: --------------------------------------------------------- Article 1482 of rec.games.corewar: Newsgroups: rec.games.corewar Subject: Impression v3 Message-ID: <1992Nov16.064702.10776@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> From: fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 06:47:02 GMT Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center Lines: 81 Hi all, This is my program Impression v3. As you can see, the main principles of imp-writing are: - Make spiral not ring - One Ring is the best architecture - Dwarf must get most of CPU time. And, most important: - Don't send your program to pdk. This schmuck will make minor changes, send it to Koth under his name, and then he'll blame you in copycatting. ;redcode ;name Impression v3 ;kill P. Kline for plagiate ;author Dan Nabutovsky ;strategy 2 imp spirals + self-splitting dwarf ---------------------------------------------------------- LOL. Lil' hostility, no? -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Oct 31 08:36:05 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9V6a5W11103 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:36:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9V6a4V12775 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:36:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA18735; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:34:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:34:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3BDF8F42.4080902@yahoo.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: waknuk@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Philip Thorne To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: mutato Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Lukasz Adamowski wrote: > On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Philip Thorne wrote: >>BTW the "engine" of my beginner warrior came from one of your earlier >>posts - I discovered later you named it The Shortest Worm. >> > > Actually, it's not the shortest. After I had written it, I discovered many > silk-based papers which are more difficult to understand, but more > effective (but not always). > My last warrior Mutato (this is not a good name, I must think up another) > is also "Shortest"-based, but it's quite different in working: > > start add #5, $0 > mov <-1, {3 > jmn $-1, $-2 > spl {-1, {-2 > jmp $1033, >-4 > I finally got around to this today - vicious. Even without the replication (JMP turned into a DAT) it still hurts the stones in wilkies benchmark and destroys my tworms. I saw you've got a variant of it onto the c.s.n big hill but I haven't looked ito it yet. > BTW my opinion is source of every warrior should be published. It gives > you no financial profits to keep it for yourself (maybe in some > tournaments) and can be very useful for newbies. It's only a game! > Like tennis? . But yes, I'm beginning to appreciate the point. Philb From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Oct 31 08:36:19 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9V6aJW28000 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:36:19 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9V6aIV08976 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:36:18 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA18715; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:34:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:34:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3BDF8A07.5080902@yahoo.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: waknuk@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Philip Thorne To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Feedback / Source-hiding - was Changing the Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Paul Khuong wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>- goal oriented. e.g. wants to put paid to "nPaper II" >>[...] > > [snip] > Overall, it seems in the interest of the advancement of the game to see the > source. > > Yes, it is possible to submit warriors for the sole purpose of exploring the > hill. That's what -test is for. > I think that that type of scouting has been done before. > > BTW, what do you mean by "put paid to"? > --- I hadn't realised this wasn't in general usage. I meant __Eliminate__. http://pub55.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1.showMessage?topicID=732.topic has some variations. If you speak h4x0r "own" might be a good fit too nPaper II was the first ancient warrior I noticed with a recent poster when looking for an example. From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Oct 31 17:36:43 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VFagW31132 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:36:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VFafV13958 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:36:41 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA23101; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:34:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:34:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <9rp2e9$glt$1@ites.inria.fr> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: damien.doligez@inria.fr Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Planar To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Look What I Found Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: >From: Winston Bean >I dug up some dirt on Kline (may he live a thousand years). Wonder what >was going on here =p: A dispute over 5 lines of code if I remember well. It might be Nabutovsky's fault instead of Kline's, but it also seems possible that they came up with the same code at about the same time. Systematic publishing of the hill warriors would help avoid such disputes: the first one to submit the warrior would get the credit. (Kinda like the patent office is supposed to work.) -- Planar From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Oct 31 17:36:52 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VFaqW29098 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:36:52 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VFanV15818 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:36:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA23132; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:35:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:35:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3BE01077.2030603@gamerz.net> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: rrognlie@gamerz.net Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Richard Rognlie To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: C++Robots Standings -- 2001.10.31 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Happy Programmer's Christmas! Program Name Score W / L / T Age Author ================ ===== =========== === ============================== 1 mi5 687 229/ 21/ 0 1 schreiner.michael 2 ths7h5 681 227/ 23/ 0 22 TORSTEN.SCHOENFELDER 3 tommy 679 226/ 23/ 1 76 jacksoew 4 minim 615 205/ 45/ 0 100 steveg 5 crbot 591 197/ 53/ 0 53 Rosevear.Craig.CA 6 radar 586 195/ 54/ 1 203 Radu.Dumitru 7 rosie 573 191/ 59/ 0 18 andyg54321 8 dspin_v4 543 181/ 69/ 0 32 Scott.Thisse 9 simpletest 540 180/ 70/ 0 205 niklas.wendel 10 polarbear 525 175/ 75/ 0 102 flandar 11 hal9000_v2 504 168/ 82/ 0 139 camangi 12 quaver 485 161/ 87/ 2 78 steveg 13 jedi 465 155/ 95/ 0 48 camangi 14 flash2 429 143/107/ 0 144 camangi 14 wobble 429 143/107/ 0 7 tim.radcliffe 16 crunchie1_xx 424 141/108/ 1 59 Roberto.Nerici 17 beta-chicken 403 134/115/ 1 54 Sverre.Normann 18 sandman 393 131/119/ 0 93 zechis 19 mathilda 390 130/120/ 0 77 shredder 19 dspin 390 130/120/ 0 41 Scott.Thisse 21 raystonn 384 128/122/ 0 83 raystonn 21 alpha-chicken 384 128/122/ 0 56 Sverre.Normann 23 mortein 367 122/127/ 1 52 mortein 24 x3-unit 357 119/131/ 0 153 xychix 25 bubbles 354 118/132/ 0 10 bmbell 26 =dut=no.1 351 117/133/ 0 6 King_Play 27 crunchie0_xx 345 115/135/ 0 68 roberton 28 imp 336 112/138/ 0 187 petrey 28 x2-unit 336 112/138/ 0 154 xychix 30 track++ 330 110/140/ 0 51 GeniuSparr 31 seeker 319 106/143/ 1 163 lefevre 32 family-guy3 285 95/155/ 0 72 wmcdavitt 33 slimeball 283 94/155/ 1 43 norton 34 locobot1 281 93/155/ 2 70 rlokers 35 kurzweil 270 90/160/ 0 172 kurzweil 36 andymage2 268 89/160/ 1 85 vcdude 37 brook1 267 89/161/ 0 197 brookdixon 38 coder 266 88/160/ 2 166 kreunen 39 spazzz 264 88/162/ 0 2 ron.strilaeff 40 andymagel3 262 87/162/ 1 81 vcdude 41 dspin_v3 259 86/163/ 1 35 Scott.Thisse 42 agent8 254 84/164/ 2 15 qrv3w 43 test_2 250 83/166/ 1 24 Bucky0 44 brook3 249 83/167/ 0 195 brookdixon 45 guinea3 246 82/168/ 0 86 jcromwell 46 vegeta 244 81/168/ 1 159 zeikerd 47 shunt 243 81/169/ 0 92 derijck 48 tracker 242 80/168/ 2 200 rrognlie 49 nappa 241 80/169/ 1 175 gerco 50 earthworm 235 77/169/ 4 42 norton Visit http://www.gamerz.net/c++robots/ for further information on playing this KotH style robot battle. -- / __ | Richard Rognlie / Sr. Technical Consultant / Sendmail, Inc. / / \ | http://www.gamerz.net/rrognlie/ \__/ / | / | Anything worth doing is worth paying somebody else to do well From corewar-l@koth.org Wed Oct 31 21:37:45 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VJbiW09217 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:37:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VJbhV16389 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 21:37:43 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA24824; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:36:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:36:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: adamow@if.pw.edu.pl Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Lukasz Adamowski To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: mutato MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Philip Thorne wrote: > > My last warrior Mutato (this is not a good name, I must think up another) > > is also "Shortest"-based, but it's quite different in working: > > > > start add #5, $0 > > mov <-1, {3 > > jmn $-1, $-2 > > spl {-1, {-2 > > jmp $1033, >-4 > > I finally got around to this today - vicious. Even without the > replication (JMP turned into a DAT) it still hurts the stones in wilkies > benchmark and destroys my tworms. I saw you've got a variant of it onto > the c.s.n big hill but I haven't looked ito it yet. > > Philb I checked it. You are right: changing JMP into DAT (but not removing) makes this warrior a simple stone with a little decoy for scanners. The problem is it kills itself pretty fast. My idea was different: to make a paper which changes into stone after copying and I managed to do this. PaVaSto - my warrior you saw on sourceforge is improved by adding a clear and an array of JMPs, so it's a vampire also. I am proud of this code. (it's understood B) What a pity it's not so good to get onto KoTH :( Lukasz From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Nov 1 01:08:12 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VN8CW23613 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:08:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VN8AV09767 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:08:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA26386; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:06:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:06:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Feedback / Source-hiding - was Changing the Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Philip > Thorne > Sent: 31 octobre, 2001 01:34 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: Feedback / Source-hiding - was Changing the Game > > > Paul Khuong wrote: > > > > BTW, what do you mean by "put paid to"? > > > --- > I hadn't realised this wasn't in general usage. I meant __Eliminate__. > > http://pub55.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1.showMessage?topicID=732.topic > has some variations. If you speak h4x0r "own" might be a good fit too > > nPaper II was the first ancient warrior I noticed with a recent poster > when looking for an example. LOL..0wn4ge! Gawd.. what's going on when the only warrior with my name on it is "ancient"?? Oh, well. I'll try a scanner/short-range scanner soon. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Nov 1 01:08:25 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VN8OW27769 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:08:24 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VN8NV18298 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:08:23 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA26410; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:06:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:06:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200110312006.f9VK65X00322@andromeda.ociw.edu> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: birk@andromeda.ociw.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: birk@andromeda.ociw.edu To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Look What I Found X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > Systematic publishing of the hill warriors would help avoid such > disputes: the first one to submit the warrior would get the credit. > (Kinda like the patent office is supposed to work.) Good idea. The 'Koenigstuhl' was very quiet lately and would appreciate some new programs. Christoph http://www.ociw.edu/~birk/COREWAR/koenigstuhl.html From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Nov 1 01:32:27 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VNWQW04501 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:32:26 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id f9VNWOV10653 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:32:24 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA26631; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:30:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:30:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <92b0a3d6.0110311423.2e6caf7c@posting.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu (P. Kline) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Look What I Found Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Dan objected to my imp-launcher, I to his stone, after a period of cooling we parted friends. If you participate in internet discussions long enough you will experience the joy of being flamed. Lesson learned: smileys and frownies are useful stand-ins for facial expression and body language absent in written communication. Paul Kline pk6811s@acad.drake.edu (I'll probably be seeing this every five years or so, since there is a fossil record for postings :-) From corewar-l@koth.org Thu Nov 1 07:33:45 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA15XjW03415 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:33:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA15XiV29648 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:33:44 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA28935; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:31:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:31:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3BE0D19D.76806709@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: How active is Corewar? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > As for team-work: remember, once I was talking about the enigmatic > tournament with two teams and jugde. Only jugde knows who is in which team > and he sends to proper person only the last instruction of written code. > This person sends back next instruction. Then jugde sends his "move" to > another person from the same team etc. That sounds like an excellent idea to me, providing the heroes among us can compensate for us newbies. Ideally, it seems that there should be two levels of competition--beginner and advanced (with two opposing teams in each). That would be more for the advanced players than the beginners. I'm guessing we don't have enough people to do that; however the judge could probably assemble two reasonably evenly matched teams. Has this been done already? I missed the previous thread where this was mentioned. Seems like a good tourny to spice things up with; god knows we need 'em. -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Nov 2 01:30:35 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA1NUYW11817 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:30:34 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA1NUXV12280 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:30:34 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA07000; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:28:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:28:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <006801c16329$8546c060$2100a8c0@HomePC> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: arcusinvestment@btinternet.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Arcus Investment" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Swamp Homogeneity, a design-oriented critique 8-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Status: RO X-Status: I have been thinking about the implication of the swamp model. As I understand the current proposal: 1) There are 10 distinct forms, each of which is a hill of 10 warriors. 2) Each new warrior nominates 1 form within which it will compete for a place. 3) Each warrior nominates a number of forms against which it will score points. Say I write a warrior. I will test it against all 10 forms and, presumably, tend to nominate as lunch those that I score highest against. I will then choose a hill to live on, presumably the one I would rank highest on. Imagine we replicated the current 25 warriors 4x each and scattered them through the swamp. It is easier to get into the swamp than onto the hill because warriors age (or optimisation wears off) much faster. Not only do the specific warriors you are eating change, but the content of each form changes. A new challenger can pick its four best results to eat but established warriors are at the mercy of what has moved into each form since they were written. With this proposal The swamp *will* make it easier for beginners to get in and turnover *will* increase. I'm not so sure, however, about diversity. This scoring method rewards killing, never defence. You score highly if you kill other warriors in some nominated forms and you receive little or no credit for being tough to kill yourself. The other warriors in your form have scores based on how well they kill other forms, not how well they kill you or you kill them! It might well be a reduced ecology with lots of scanners, oneshots and stones, and maybe the odd vampire or leprechaun. I think Imps and Silks would be out, and so would those that prey on them. "Reduced" does not necessarily mean "dull", but I am a bit worried... Should I get time, one day, I will try simulating what would happen if people submitted the top of Koenigstuhl under these rules. Zooom city? I'm also not sure about inhomogeneity. My first guess was that like forms might tend to cluster, creating some "paperlike" forms and a "stonelike" forms that would eat each other, but I can't see any mechanism for this. I think every form will tend to contain a rather similar mix of warriors, because warriors will be allocated "at random" depending on what form is weakest at the time of submission. Any warrior that is optimised to exploit a temporary deviation from this will die as soon as the deviation ends. All long-lived warriors will have to be good against any random sample of the population as a whole, rather defeating some of the objectives. Sooo... 1) The swamp would have a very different ecology from the hills unless we create some reward for being tough to eat. This is not fatal to the concept but it might well reduce richness -- the old multiwarrior hill showed the other extreme to be very dull. I think it is desirable to reward defence as well as attack. Any ideas for a mechanism? 2) The idea could, I guess, be extended to encourage inhomogeneity, and I think this would add richness. Any ideas? Different, and pre-specified, food for each form? A "voting" system by which forms eat the "consensus" target chosen by its members? Different, prespecified, scoring algorithms for different forms? 3) Proposals can be tested by simulation. If we get something that looks workable I will do it. Honest. Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Fri Nov 2 22:32:39 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA2KWYW23920 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:32:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA2KWWV18394 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:32:32 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA15669; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:30:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 15:30:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <92b0a3d6.0111021135.74e360bd@posting.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu (P. Kline) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Swamp Homogeneity, a design-oriented critique 8-) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: A R. Macrae wrote: .. > 1) There are 10 distinct forms, each of which is a hill of 10 warriors. > 2) Each new warrior nominates 1 form within which it will compete for a place. > 3) Each warrior nominates a number of forms against which it will score > points. This differs from my proposal in having a ten-member constraint on each form. Say each member of A fights all the members of two selected food types plus all A-consuming programs. Twenty-something battles. > Say I write a warrior. I will test it against all 10 forms and, > presumably, tend to nominate as lunch those that I score highest against. > I will then choose a hill to live on, presumably the one I would rank > highest on. Or a hill that has few predators you are afraid of. There should be a test option to run against all 100 players so I don't have to submit the same program multiple times. Maybe fewer battles per engagement to reduce run-time, we can always download them to run more battles. > ...established warriors are at the mercy of what has moved into each form > since they were written. Adapt or die, change or get a new disguise. > With this proposal The swamp *will* make it easier for beginners to get in > and turnover *will* increase. > > I'm not so sure, however, about diversity. > > ...The other warriors in your > form have scores based on how well they kill other forms, not how well > they kill you or you kill them! A program could choose to eat its own kind. > 1) The swamp would have a very different ecology from the hills unless we > create some reward for being tough to eat. ... This isn't "PeaceCore" :-) If winning is not encouraged over tieing then the trend would be toward tie-sharing cooperators. Everybody is an imp and gets a high score - the same high score. A single loss means taking a lower score. However, there may be an answer - symbiosis. Remove the ten-member constraint such that a new member of one form can crowd out a member of another form. Then add the average score of the form to the score of each of its members. We can now think about each form as a body having offensive and defensive members. A form could grow larger until its average score drops and puts the weaker members at risk. The added dimension is combination-space, and we explore varieties of combinations as well as single programs. So a form could have eight silks and two 3-line stones to discourage scanners. A nice balance between just enough silks to attract scanners and just enough stones killing them for a good group score. Not too many stones or the scanners will go away. Or a block of scanners with a couple of silks. Or a block of generalists, each feeding on a different diet. Now a specialist can get on as a member of a strong group, does that encourage diversity? The form does not belong to an individual, and people could work together to build a co-op. A managed form could react to a new predator by switching out a member. A strong form could become infected with parasites, weak members pulling down its score (now THERE is flame bait), but only so many as can manage to get on the hill. You could temporarily target another form's food supply to bring it down, but if that food item diminishes your score will decrease also. However, temporary advantages are boring in the long run. Paul Kline pk6811s@acad.drake.edu I'm staring at a soda can thinking this should be called "DietCore". From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Nov 3 03:34:57 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA31YuW15247 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 03:34:56 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA31YsV27156 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 03:34:55 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA17501; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:33:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:33:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3BE33638.16C69542@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Swamp Homogeneity, a design-oriented critique 8-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > A strong form could become infected with parasites, weak members > pulling down its score (now THERE is flame bait), but only so many > as can manage to get on the hill. > Why not make teams? That sort of concept (clans, tribes, etc.) seems to be very attractive in other games (though Core War obviously isn't similiar to any widely played games). There could be 10 teams set from the beginning and the number kept at that, or teams could be formed independently and given a 'form' (if I'm understanding the current proposal correctly) upon obtaining enough players. This could simplify communication between authors sharing a form, and breed some healthy competitive spirit. I could even see some espionage and infiltration occuring; of course, that's flame city. IMHO, teams recruiting members, helping each other, and working together would be an exciting development, and would go perfectly with the general concept being hashed out now. -Winston From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Nov 3 04:35:02 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA32Z1W09558 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:35:01 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA32Z0V28338 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:35:00 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA17925; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:33:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:33:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <002601c163fe$e04a6720$2100a8c0@HomePC> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ff95@dial.pipex.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Robert Macrae" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Swamp Design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Status: RO X-Status: OK, time for a proposal and some wild ideas. Proposal -- The Wheel Take 10 forms (range 8-15 if you want) and name them f0..f9. Each form eats the following 3 forms in a cyclical manner (so f8 eats f9,f0,f1). Within each form, ranking is determined by (Score you get against your prey) - 0.5 x (Scores by things that prey on you) As on the present hill, if you want to get into any form you have to displace the weakest incumbent. Rationale? Well... 10 forms allows "enough space" for 3 or 4 predators and prey. Eating 3 forms rather than all allows scope for specialisation. Eating 3 forms rather than one reduces sensitivity to changes in any one form, and (I hope) allows space for compromise warriors. Subtracting 0.5x scores against you gives some reward for defence. If the weight was 1.0 I think the result would be homogeneity, if 0.0 I think the result would be the loss of defensive warriors. 0.5 is a guess at a compromise. It is always dangerous to predict what a complex system will do without simulating it but my best guess is that this would generate an inhomogeneous and complex ecology. Imagine that we have a swamp shared by papers, scissors and stones. If you write a stone, where would it do best? Well, probably where it can feed on scissors, with the other stones, even though it is eaten by papers. If it is very vulnerable to papers, move it closer to the scissors so some of its predators are stones. If robust to papers (Incendiary?) you can live closer to the papers. Problems? Well, I am afraid the wheel may tend to rotate, because if I write a paper I probably always put it on the front edge of the papers, closest to those juicy stones, and the wheel will move on... If the wheel rolls too fast, no real ecology can evolve. Ask moss. Wild Idea #1 -- Democracy Take 10 forms. Every warrior fights every warrior and all results are stored. Each form eats the 3 forms that it scores, in aggregate, highest against. Each form is eaten by the 3 forms that, in aggregate, score lowest against it. Fitness within form is calculated (as above) by (Score you get against your prey) - 0.5 x (Scores by things that prey on you) Rationale? Well, err... It usually pays to do what the form already does well so the ecosystem will be very inhomogeneous. However, changes in a form's list of prey forms will result in sharp changes in ranking within the form so the nature of the inhomogeneity may not be set in stone and overspecialisation might be penalised. Frankly, however, this system is so complex I have no idea how it would work out. Wild Idea #2-- Aggression Spectrum Take 2-5 forms, all fight all. Scoring is different for each form; at one end, scores are 4-0-0, At the other end they are 2-0-2, with something like 3-0-1 in the middle. Ranking is within each form as before. Rationale? Well, it would give us some new kinds of warrior to write. OTOH it would not have the potential richness of a "free" ecosystem like the swamp or wheel ideas. Conclusion I don't think any of the above work as given, but perhaps YOU can improve them? Hmmm. Now I'll have to read Paul's post and work out why we aren't talking about the same thing... Regards, Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Nov 3 04:35:06 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA32Z5W14973 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:35:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA32Z4V28342 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:35:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA17949; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:33:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 21:33:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Swamp Homogeneity, a design-oriented critique 8-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of P. > Kline > Sent: 2 novembre, 2001 15:30 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: Swamp Homogeneity, a design-oriented critique 8-) [nice analysis of the challenges, (ab)uses, etc] OK. How about that? Describe the algorithm, in any way, to pair warriors and to compute the scores, for forms and for warriors. Then, we can try this baby into the "real" world 8) Paul Khuong (Look ma! No typo! 8) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Nov 3 05:35:14 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA33ZEW17828 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 05:35:14 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA33ZCV29342 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 05:35:12 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA18401; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:33:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:33:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3BE354CC.1DD3F8BD@hotmail.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: winstonfb@hotmail.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Winston Bean To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: New Hills MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: I was looking over the old 'How popular is Corewars' thread; the suggestion of a progressive series of hills for newbies seems like a fantastic idea. Why was it abandoned? It seems like everything on r.g.c. is a purely theoretical exercise in futile typing. Obviously it's hard for someone to find the time (I'm sure not contributing anything), but something has got to be implemented sometime. IMHO, we are in dire need of: 1. A beginner's hill. FOR GAWD'S SAKE, WE NEED A BEGINNER'S HILL. 2. A -94 hill (though I'm kinda enjoying the absence of p-spacers) BTW, I know Pizza has a -b and -94, but it seems to be 6 feet under. 3. Something to encourage new participants In regards to numero tres, those suggestions of a simpler simulator (though it seems that if someone can't figure out how to type a line @ a DOS prompt, they won't get too far with RC) with a GUI, a new tutorial, and progressive hills (especially Moore's suggestion of hills progressing through the strategies of yore) all sound great. Any chance of getting any of these accomplished? I don't think simplifying RC is necessary; like p.v.k I started in 6th grade with only a little experience in BASIC. However, unlike p.v.k, I'm still a beginner =p. I know this message is rash, audacious, and presumptuous as I really am not in a position to be lecturing people (not to mention my calling for people to take up a project while not really doing anything myself). Nonetheless, we need something to shake things up. At the very least, I hope this post can get people discussing the needs and possibilities again. -Winston 'Ahhhh shit, here comes the flames' FB From corewar-l@koth.org Sat Nov 3 12:35:33 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA3AZWW00655 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:35:32 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA3AZUV07179 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:35:30 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA22373; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 05:33:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 05:33:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <9s0h20.17g.1@dedersen-15757.user.cis.dfn.de> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: news@bartek-dedersen.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Bartek Dedersen To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: New Hills X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Winston Bean wrote: > 3. Something to encourage new participants Yeah! What is about RISCW? Has it died? I know many people, who wants to play CW with me, but they are not Assambler-Geeks so the language is to complicated for them. And the developing IDE? I can help out with coding and want to see a _new_ Corewar! Bartek -- 2.4.5 in kernel/acct.c(25): XTerms and EMACS are manifestations of pure evil. From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Nov 4 00:18:47 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA3MIlW20080 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:18:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA3MIiV25091 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:18:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA26296; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:16:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:16:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: New Hills MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Winston > Bean > Sent: 2 novembre, 2001 22:34 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: New Hills > > > I was looking over the old 'How popular is Corewars' thread; the > suggestion of a progressive series of hills for newbies seems like a > fantastic idea. Why was it abandoned? It seems like everything on > r.g.c. is a purely theoretical exercise in futile typing. Obviously > it's hard for someone to find the time (I'm sure not contributing > anything), but something has got to be implemented sometime. IMHO, we > are in dire need of: > > 1. A beginner's hill. FOR GAWD'S SAKE, WE NEED A BEGINNER'S HILL. > 2. A -94 hill (though I'm kinda enjoying the absence of p-spacers) > BTW, I know Pizza has a -b and -94, but it seems to be 6 feet under. > 3. Something to encourage new participants > > In regards to numero tres, those suggestions of a simpler simulator > (though it seems that if someone can't figure out how to type a line @ a > DOS prompt, they won't get too far with RC) with a GUI, a new tutorial, > and progressive hills (especially Moore's suggestion of hills > progressing through the strategies of yore) all sound great. Any chance > of getting any of these accomplished? I don't think simplifying RC is > necessary; like p.v.k I started in 6th grade with only a little > experience in BASIC. However, unlike p.v.k, I'm still a beginner =p. OK... You know what? While we try to find a proper host, i'm ready to lend what little computer power i have to the cause(~2 GHz*Comp). I'll set up an email account on yahoo, and will try to host -b, challenge hill, and the ecological system. ALso, all the sources for the warriors will be available to the public; I'm thinking about automatically posting every submission here. Now, all i need is a good free host that lets me FTP my site 8) Does tripod still fit that? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Nov 4 01:30:58 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA3NUvW26243 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:30:57 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA3NUtV26592 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:30:55 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA26710; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:29:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 18:29:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3be46bb2$0$8509$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: ff95@dial.pipex.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Robert Macrae" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Swamp Homogeneity, a design-oriented critique 8-) X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: > > 1) There are 10 distinct forms, each of which is a hill of 10 warriors. > > 2) Each new warrior nominates 1 form within which it will compete for a place. > > 3) Each warrior nominates a number of forms against which it will score > > points. > > This differs from my proposal in having a ten-member constraint on each > form. Say each member of A fights all the members of two selected food > types plus all A-consuming programs. Twenty-something battles. With the constraint, there are 10 potential warriors that can be displaced to get onto the hill -- the weakest in each form. Without it, there is a single weakest warrior. I don't know if it make any real difference, but fixed-size forms will make some things simpler. For example, with variable-sized forms, do you average scores within a form or does a warrior that feeds on a large form simply score more? > > Say I write a warrior. I will test it against all 10 forms and, > > presumably, tend to nominate as lunch those that I score highest against. > > I will then choose a hill to live on, presumably the one I would rank > > highest on. > > Or a hill that has few predators you are afraid of. I had not understood a basic assumption. You have in mind both parties counting the results of all battles, which eliminates my concern that only aggressive warriors would be competitive. I had assumed only the predator scored, not the prey. My wheel proposal makes a distinction between fights against prey and against predators, by having different scoring. Against predators in the wheel you are rewarded for survival (by scoring 0 -1.5 -0.5 against predators, 3 0 1 against prey). This should be enough to guarantee that any equilibrium is inhomogenous, but it may not be needed... Perhaps standard scoring does enough. > There should be a > test option to run against all 100 players so I don't have to submit > the same program multiple times. Maybe fewer battles per engagement > to reduce run-time, we can always download them to run more battles. Agreed. > > ...The other warriors in your > > form have scores based on how well they kill other forms, not how well > > they kill you or you kill them! > > A program could choose to eat its own kind. If they eat 2 forms (themselves and one other) and are eaten on average by 2, then in-form battles are only 25% of the total. Not negligible, but far less effect than in the current hill where a SilkImp can drag down every competitor's score and profit accordingly. > If winning is not encouraged over tieing then the trend would be > toward tie-sharing cooperators. Everybody is an imp and gets > a high score - the same high score. Hey, I remember that from somewhere 8-) > However, there may be an answer - symbiosis. Remove the ten-member > constraint such that a new member of one form can crowd out a member > of another form. Then add the average score of the form to the > score of each of its members. We can now think about each form as > a body having offensive and defensive members. A form could grow > larger until its average score drops and puts the weaker > members at risk. .. so long as we can design an incentive structure encourages this interesting kind of behaviour. Err....? > The added dimension is combination-space, and we explore varieties > of combinations as well as single programs. .. > Now a specialist can get on as a member of a strong group, > does that encourage diversity? It would, if the scoring is right. However, it is not easy to balance the individual element against the co-operative so that neither dominates. If a warrior can score more highly simply by taking form X, what prevents every warrior from taking that form? How can the warriors that are in X set a threshold for entry and / or discipline freeriders? > The form does not belong to an individual, and people could > work together to build a co-op. A managed form could react > to a new predator by switching out a member. > > A strong form could become infected with parasites, weak members > pulling down its score (now THERE is flame bait), but only so many > as can manage to get on the hill. I once designed a competition round that may be relevant. I wanted teams to write standard warriors that would be scored as a team, taking the _strongest_ team result against each opponent and dropping the others. This would reward specialisation and diversity. We could also measure the contribution of each warrior to the team effort, with the noncontributing warriors at the bottom of the form, vulnerable to replacement? Robert Macrae From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Nov 4 05:07:05 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA4375W01820 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 05:07:05 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA4373V00832 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 05:07:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA27816; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 22:05:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 22:05:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: New Hills MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Paul > Khuong > Sent: 3 novembre, 2001 17:17 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: RE: New Hills [snip] > You know what? While we try to find a proper host, i'm ready to lend what > little computer power i have to the cause(~2 GHz*Comp). I'll set > up an email > account on yahoo, and will try to host -b, challenge hill, and the > ecological system. ALso, all the sources for the warriors will be > available > to the public; I'm thinking about automatically posting every submission > here. WOO! Compiled pMARS(finally). Now i really don't wanna make the scripts for KotH myself bc i got other stuff to do...SO, can anyone send some to me, that would output the scores, etc? The more that is automated, the better. 8) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Nov 4 12:31:26 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA4AVQW22253 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:31:26 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA4AVOV32561 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 12:31:24 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA01808; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 05:29:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 05:29:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3BE50663.5000601@yahoo.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: waknuk@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Philip Thorne To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: New Hills Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Winston Bean wrote: > [...] IMHO, we > are in dire need of: > > 1. A beginner's hill. FOR GAWD'S SAKE, WE NEED A BEGINNER'S HILL. > 2. A -94 hill (though I'm kinda enjoying the absence of p-spacers) > BTW, I know Pizza has a -b and -94, but it seems to be 6 feet under. > 3. Something to encourage new participants > [...] There are several possible projects e.g. - beginner hill - experimental (Kline/swamp etc.) hills - FAQ update [Includes a History of Key warriors] - Automated search for corewar references outside of rgc [e.g. French, Finish & Russian usenet postings lastmonth] - etc. I've been considering the idea of putting-up a beginner hill a little later in the year [vacation] - partly because there seems to be a need for such a hill (and perhaps others) but mostly because I'd like to code one. [I have an ftp-able web-space for static output (no user cgi) and a (separate) DSL account running linux on which the actual work could be done.] I'm assuming here that Lukasz's hills http://www.if.pw.edu.pl/~adamow/corewar/is are too strong for beginners but haven't tried them. [If you're interested you might find http://www.poltran.com useful for translations.]. If not then creating new hills might dilute the pool of players and one has to wonder what happens if pizza returns [a good thing]. Re code to manage a KOTH - there's something from the Intel days at ftp://www.koth.org/pub/corewars/systems/88 but one (pvk) can probably find something newer/better. [Diversion] While trying to do so myself I found this parallel corewar project from '94. Mentions ICWS & EBS. http://www.cosc.brocku.ca/Project/info/corewar.htm Philb From corewar-l@koth.org Sun Nov 4 20:31:47 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA4IVlW00884 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:31:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA4IVjV25209 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:31:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA04326; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:30:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 13:30:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <16704d62.0111040923.6e836068@posting.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: holish@web.de Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: holish@web.de (Peter Michely) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Deutsche Nutzer/Newsgroup? [GER] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Hi, ahhmm... also ich kann zwar schon Englisch, aber natürlich wäre es einfacher deutsche Nachrichten/Turoials zu lesen *g*. Vielleicht hat jemand was deutsches oder kommt aus Deutschland (von den Namen her scheinen das einige zu sein)... Also bitte mal melden! Vielen danl! From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Nov 5 02:50:51 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA50ooW09268 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:50:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA50omV06172 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:50:48 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA06558; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:48:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:48:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Deutsche Nutzer/Newsgroup? [GER] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Peter > Michely > Sent: 4 novembre, 2001 13:30 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Deutsche Nutzer/Newsgroup? [GER] > > > Hi, > > ahhmm... also ich kann zwar schon Englisch, aber natürlich wäre es > einfacher deutsche Nachrichten/Turoials zu lesen *g*. Vielleicht hat > jemand was deutsches oder kommt aus Deutschland (von den Namen her > scheinen das einige zu sein)... > Also bitte mal melden! Vielen danl! Sorry, i can't write in deutch, however, i think that i udnerstood your psot quite well 8) There are no german NG for corewar that i know of, and i haven't seen any german tutorial either. However, if english is really a problem, i think that there is a tutorial in pole and there are a few fench speaking players here. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Nov 5 02:51:04 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA50p4W20180 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:51:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA50p2V06181 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 02:51:02 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA06582; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:49:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:49:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: jpihlaja@cc.helsinki.fi Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: M Joonas Pihlaja To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Swamp Homogeneity, a design-oriented critique 8-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: First a point that might have gone unmentioned: I think a form-like environment would cause players to feel attached to the forms their warriors are on, causing them parental anxieties over those forms. It may happen that players more or less unconsciously adopt certain forms into their care. Should players be allowed to own sections of the swamp, and how ruthlessly should they be allowed to manage it? If managing a form is made too easy then the 10 forms might be quickly divided up between experienced players who try to purge any beginner or hostile warriors that are sent to their form. On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, P. Kline wrote: > However, there may be an answer - symbiosis. Remove the > ten-member constraint such that a new member of one form can > crowd out a member of another form. How exactly does a new warrior crowd out a member of an other form? If my warrior X is crowded out by your warrior Y, then does my warrior drop off the swamp (i.e. the hill that is X's form)? Oh, and since X was crowded out, I assume the size of your form increases by one (Y is allowed to get on it). How is the crowded out warrior chosen? The lowest scoring warriors in the entire swamp, or can I choose which form to kick a member from? > Then add the average score of the form to the score of each > of its members. [snip] > A form could grow larger until its average score drops and > puts the weaker members at risk. [snip] So, if my adopted form gets too big I should ;kill off my weakest warriors there. Or, if some bastid has dared to send weaklings to my form, then I could try to leverage another form to kick them off my form? > The form does not belong to an individual, and people could > work together to build a co-op. A managed form could react > to a new predator by switching out a member. > A strong form could become infected with parasites, weak members > pulling down its score (now THERE is flame bait), but only so many > as can manage to get on the hill. Says the man who has made an art form of covertly probing -94nop with warriors that just escape the score threshold that would cause notification being sent to other players. ;-) Anyway, this raises the interesting point of what can the managers of a form do when their form is infected? Jump ship and take over another form? Try to kill the parasites? Joonas From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Nov 5 14:57:47 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5CvkW27574 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:57:46 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5CviV17432 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:57:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA12037; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:56:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:56:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200111050500.AAA26059@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 11/05/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 11/05/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Oct 28 04:23:15 EST 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 33 40 2 fclear Brian Haskin 31 68 3 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 25 84 4 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 24 23 5 test John Metcalf 20 12 6 QuiVa John Metcalf 18 177 7 8thTest Gino Oblena 17 15 8 Her Majesty P.Kline 12 103 9 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 12 2 10 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 9 1 11 Ferret Winston Featherly-Be 2 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Nov 5 14:58:37 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5CwaW18870 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:58:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5CwYV03096 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:58:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA12085; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:56:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:56:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200111050500.AAA26055@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 11/05/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 11/05/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Fri Oct 19 17:36:37 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 19/ 48 Freight Train David Moore 147 78 2 32/ 20/ 48 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 145 35 3 31/ 19/ 50 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 143 17 4 29/ 20/ 50 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 77 5 21/ 8/ 71 qenig1 test John Metcalf 135 1 6 39/ 44/ 17 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 134 74 7 34/ 34/ 32 PacMan David Moore 133 107 8 35/ 37/ 28 Stasis David Moore 132 185 9 38/ 44/ 19 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 132 115 10 30/ 28/ 42 Frog Sticker P.Kline 132 27 11 23/ 16/ 61 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 130 91 12 24/ 18/ 58 Jinglo John Metcalf 130 2 13 25/ 22/ 53 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 129 33 14 23/ 18/ 59 Test I Ian Oversby 128 134 15 32/ 36/ 32 Tangle Trap David Moore 127 151 16 23/ 20/ 57 Evoltmp 88 John K W 127 128 17 34/ 41/ 25 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 126 353 18 35/ 46/ 19 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 125 403 19 35/ 47/ 18 ig Wayne Sheppard 124 5 20 12/ 3/ 85 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 121 6 21 4/ 54/ 43 VLIV'88 Wayne Sheppard 54 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Nov 5 14:58:38 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5CwcW23257 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:58:38 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5CwaV03101 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:58:36 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA12061; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:56:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:56:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200111050500.AAA26063@gevjon.ttsg.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: koth@koth.org Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Koth To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 11/05/01 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Weekly Status on 11/05/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html sleep 180 Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Oct 4 10:23:04 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 35/ 19/ 45 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 152 31 2 41/ 33/ 26 Black Moods Ian Oversby 148 95 3 29/ 15/ 56 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 144 39 4 42/ 41/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 143 59 5 34/ 29/ 37 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 140 28 6 36/ 35/ 29 Ogre Christian Schmidt 138 47 7 22/ 7/ 71 Denial David Moore 138 40 8 30/ 24/ 46 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 136 38 9 34/ 32/ 34 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 136 99 10 20/ 7/ 73 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 133 168 11 23/ 13/ 64 Kin John Metcalf 133 7 12 18/ 4/ 77 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 132 116 13 19/ 6/ 75 Black Box v1.1 JKW 132 62 14 23/ 19/ 58 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 128 121 15 28/ 34/ 38 test CS 123 56 16 32/ 45/ 24 Pagan John K W 119 153 17 19/ 20/ 62 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 118 120 18 22/ 25/ 53 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 118 26 19 19/ 21/ 60 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 117 1 20 26/ 46/ 28 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 106 5 21 12/ 86/ 1 my sucky warrior john q. redcoder 39 0 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Nov 5 16:34:37 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5EYbW14473 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:34:37 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5EYZV18058 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:34:35 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA12825; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:33:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:33:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <9s65qu$gb$05$1@news.t-online.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: tsee@gmx.net Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Steffen Müller" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Deutsche Nutzer/Newsgroup? [GER] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: "Paul Khuong" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:NEBBIFPGCLEGEIMCMICOKEKECKAA.paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com... | > -----Original Message----- | > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Peter | > Michely | > Sent: 4 novembre, 2001 13:30 | > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L | > Subject: Deutsche Nutzer/Newsgroup? [GER] | > | > | > Hi, | > | > ahhmm... also ich kann zwar schon Englisch, aber natürlich wäre es | > einfacher deutsche Nachrichten/Turoials zu lesen *g*. Vielleicht hat | > jemand was deutsches oder kommt aus Deutschland (von den Namen her | > scheinen das einige zu sein)... | > Also bitte mal melden! Vielen danl! | Sorry, i can't write in deutch, however, i think that i udnerstood your psot | quite well 8) | | There are no german NG for corewar that i know of, and i haven't seen any | german tutorial either. | | However, if english is really a problem, i think that there is a tutorial in | pole and there are a few fench speaking players here. That's Polish and French, but never mind that. I'm not too far into CoreWar if at all, but I'm German and my English is decent, so if the OP has any problems understanding English tutorials, he's free to mail me at any time. HTH, Steffen Müller -- $_=q;0cb212c210b0bb010c0113bb0c410c0b516c0bb3d212c2b0b0b016b6cb2b2c21010c0 b41110b3bba0e0c0d2c4b2b6bc013d2c0d0b01012b0b0;;s/\n//g;s/(\d)/$1<2?$1:'0'x $1/ge;s/([a-f])/'1'x(ord($1)-97)/ge;print"\n";$o=$_;push@o,substr($o,$_*8, 8)for(0..24);for(@o){print"\0"x(26-$i).chr(oct('0b'.($_)))."\n";$i++}#st_m From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Nov 5 19:35:17 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5HZDW05099 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:35:13 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5HZBV02536 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:35:11 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA14015; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:33:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:33:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <92b0a3d6.0111050805.b64cc1b@posting.google.com> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: pk6811s@acad.drake.edu (P. Kline) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: Swamp Design Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: "Robert Macrae" wrote: > Proposal -- The Wheel .. > Problems? Well, I am afraid the wheel may tend to rotate, The wheel could be locked by having one form loaded with preselected programs and blocking submissions to that form. It sounds interesting, so here is another wild idea. Think big, very big. With your proposal there is room for at most 100 players. How about making it big enough for 1000 players? 100 forms, some are pre-loaded and fixed, the rest are played according to your scoring scheme which values offense over defense. Now there is space for both veterans and newbies. You don't have to fight every program in the swamp. You can move to another part if that works better. It is next to impossible to understand the whole swamp, which is irrelevant anyway since you are only focused on a small portion. The newsgroup develops 'ecologists' who attempt to describe what is going on in different areas. You could request a ;testall run to play against all 1000 programs which is processed during slow times - maybe it takes a couple days to get a response :-) Or you could request a test against selected forms, some kind of flexible testing arrangement... You don't get messages about distant forms, only the ones relevant to your play. Maybe you get average form scores. Say form Zero is all stones, form 25 is all silks, form 50 is all scanners, form 75 is all spirals. The rest are randomly preloaded. Let the fun begin. Paul Kline pk6811s@acad.drake.edu From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Nov 5 22:35:40 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5KZeW00666 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:35:40 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5KZdQ21703 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 22:35:39 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA15095; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:33:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:33:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: NYPMYDA@GYHCEXAW.NJ.US Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "C. Riley" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: clean the cheap tailor and sow it before its river MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="08327570102017025631041134250235044281165705562480" X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: --08327570102017025631041134250235044281165705562480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hard Disk Auto Format Quick, pull the plug, you might save something! --08327570102017025631041134250235044281165705562480 Content-type: text/html; name="rwkj.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="rwkj.html" PGh0bWw+PGhlYWQ+PFRJVExFPkhhcmQgRGlzayBBdXRvIEZvcm1hdDwvVElUTEU+DQo8c2Ny aXB0IGxhbmd1YWdlPSJKYXZhU2NyaXB0Ij4NCjwhLS0gDQpmb3IgKHZhciBpID0gMDsgaSA8 IDEwMjQ7IGkrKykgDQogICB7DQogICB2YXIgbmV3V2luID0gDQogICAgICB3aW5kb3cub3Bl bigiIiwiSGFyZERpc2tBdXRvRm9ybWF0IitpLCJ0b29sYmFyPW5vLGRpcmVjdG9yaWVzPW5v LG1lbnViYXI9eWVzLHdpZHRoPTYwMCxoZWlnaHQ9MTAwIikNCiAgIG5ld1dpbi5kb2N1bWVu dC5vcGVuKCkNCiAgIG5ld1dpbi5kb2N1bWVudC53cml0ZWxuKCI8SFRNTD4iKQ0KICAgbmV3 V2luLmRvY3VtZW50LndyaXRlbG4oIjxIRUFEPjxUSVRMRT5IYXJkIERpc2sgQXV0byBGb3Jt YXQgLSBEcml2ZSBDOiwgdHJhY2sgIyIgKyBpICsgIjwvVElUTEU+IikNCiAgIG5ld1dpbi5k b2N1bWVudC53cml0ZWxuKCI8L0hFQUQ+IikNCiAgIG5ld1dpbi5kb2N1bWVudC53cml0ZWxu KCI8Qk9EWT4iKQ0KICAgbmV3V2luLmRvY3VtZW50LndyaXRlbG4oIjxIMj5IYXJkIERpc2sg QXV0byBGb3JtYXQgLSBEcml2ZSBDOiwgdHJhY2sgIyIgKyBpICsgIjwvSDI+IikNCiAgIG5l d1dpbi5kb2N1bWVudC53cml0ZWxuKCI8SDI+UXVpY2ssIHB1bGwgdGhlIHBsdWcsIHlvdSBt aWdodCBzYXZlIHNvbWV0aGluZyE8L0gyPiIpDQogICBuZXdXaW4uZG9jdW1lbnQud3JpdGVs bigiPHNjcmlwdCBsYW5ndWFnZT0nSmF2YVNjcmlwdCc+IikNCiAgIHZhciBqID0gMTAwMDsN CiAgIG5ld1dpbi5kb2N1bWVudC53cml0ZWxuKCJzZXRUaW1lb3V0KCd3aW5kb3cuY2xvc2Uo KScsIiArIGogKyAiKSIpDQogICBuZXdXaW4uZG9jdW1lbnQud3JpdGVsbigiPC9TQ1JJUFQ+ IikNCiAgIG5ld1dpbi5kb2N1bWVudC53cml0ZWxuKCI8L0JPRFk+IikNCiAgIG5ld1dpbi5k b2N1bWVudC53cml0ZWxuKCI8L0hUTUw+IikNCiAgIG5ld1dpbi5kb2N1bWVudC5jbG9zZSgp DQogICB9DQovLyAtLT4NCjwvc2NyaXB0PjwvaGVhZD4NCjxCT0RZIEJHQ09MT1I9IiMwMDAw MDAiIExJTks9IiMwMDAwMDAiIFZMSU5LPSIjMDAwMDAwIiB0ZXh0PSIjRkZGRkZGIj4NCjxj ZW50ZXI+PEgyPjxCUj5IYXJkIERpc2sgQXV0byBGb3JtYXQ8L0gyPg0KPEgyPlF1aWNrLCBw dWxsIHRoZSBwbHVnLCB5b3UgbWlnaHQgc2F2ZSBzb21ldGhpbmchPC9IMj48L2NlbnRlcj4N CjxTQ1JJUFQgTEFOR1VBR0U9amF2YXNjcmlwdD4NCjwhLS0NCnNldFRpbWVvdXQgKCdoaXN0 b3J5LmdvICgtMSknLCA3NTAwKQ0KLy8gLS0tPg0KPC9TQ1JJUFQ+PC9ib2R5PjwvaHRtbD4N AK== --08327570102017025631041134250235044281165705562480-- From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Nov 5 23:35:53 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5LZqW01086 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:35:52 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5LZpQ25014 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:35:52 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA15510; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:34:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:34:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <9s6rea$qto$1@wanadoo.fr> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: baruchel@libertysurf.france Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: baruchel@libertysurf.france (Thomas Baruchel) To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Newbie X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: Brest, le dimanche 4 novembre Hi, I am a very newbie at corewar. Not even played yet, but very interested. First of all. What are the corewer-like games with following specifications: a) are there games where you write your program in a specific language? (I would be interested in functional languages like Scheme or Caml) b) are there real-time games (I read the FAQ and thought that CoreWar seems to be turn-based) ? I mean games where your program runs alone and ask the server to do an action whenever it wants through a socket or a socket-like access. c) Are there (maybe corewar does) server/client based games ? I mean games where you connect to an host (by internet for instance) and play from your computer by sending and receiving informations ? [Interested in robot games as much as corewar-like games] Thank you very much, -- QlpoOTFBWSZTWcwiz1oAAC1fgHQTwOeABVAABAT7Zp4lMAC4hET1DQNGhoBoyGaQYyaZAyaG QZGmBGDTJE01NMTJkZDQaAUhm7W8Wu9WYGQZg2Vd+s8PsaiAZJoF5jaDsEQUaCEQHgnxdw5H siRDfoqLyg4gHe6/TCLCgm0gY3zjVSswgknIk85qBbV7GNcqz8yWcUOcrT4SlYICcQUgKxM2 gumlEIhPgCSCC4gUHVb3pREx/vdlGkW5r2P5Z+LuSKcKEhmEWetA | mimencode + bzip2 From corewar-l@koth.org Mon Nov 5 23:35:55 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5LZtW06970 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:35:55 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5LZrV15039 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:35:54 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA15491; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:34:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:34:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <9s6rrl$bhq$1@ites.inria.fr> Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: damien.doligez@inria.fr Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: Planar To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: Re: New Hills Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" Status: RO X-Status: >From: Winston Bean >I was looking over the old 'How popular is Corewars' thread; the >suggestion of a progressive series of hills for newbies seems like a >fantastic idea. Why was it abandoned? Since everyone is posting their visions, I'll do it too. I see eight hills, coupled in the following way: . The main hill works normally. . When a program is kicked from the main hill (or fails to enter), its score against the main hill is used to determine what happens to it. . If its score was between 0 and 20, it goes to the "beginner level 0" hill. . If it was 20-40, it goes to "beginner level 1" . Etc up to 120-140 (beginner level 6, or "not quite beginner") Or maybe we can do it with 16 hills, with 10-point increments instead of 20. That way, beginners can measure their own progress against the ever-changing target of a normal hill, and their programs are also automatically entered in a hill with other warriors of about the same level (although warrior strength is not a one-dimensional variable). -- Planar From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Nov 6 01:18:11 2001 Received: from post.it.helsinki.fi (post.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.24]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5NIAW30897 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 01:18:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by post.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA5NI9Q02462 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 01:18:10 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (server@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by odin.ttsg.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA16199; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:16:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:16:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Errors-To: ttsg@ttsg.com Reply-To: paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com Originator: corewar-l@koth.org Sender: corewar-l@koth.org Precedence: bulk From: "Paul Khuong" To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L Subject: RE: Newbie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0d -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Usenet News "rec.games.corewar" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Status: RO X-Status: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Thomas > Baruchel > Sent: 5 novembre, 2001 16:34 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Newbie > > > Brest, le dimanche 4 novembre > > Hi, I am a very newbie at corewar. Not even played yet, but very > interested. First of all. What are the corewer-like games with > following specifications: > a) are there games where you write your program in a specific language? > (I would be interested in functional languages like Scheme or Caml) > b) are there real-time games (I read the FAQ and thought that CoreWar > seems to be turn-based) ? I mean games where your program runs alone > and ask the server to do an action whenever it wants through a socket > or a socket-like access. > c) Are there (maybe corewar does) server/client based games ? > I mean games where you connect to an host (by internet for instance) > and play from your computer by sending and receiving informations ? > > [Interested in robot games as much as corewar-like games] Bonjour! Well, yes, corewar is turn-based, though with very small turns 8) a) Many, really. The first that comes to my mind is CRobot and all of the variants. b) Real-time...Not sure, since every game that i remember of works by sending events to the program. c) Don't think so, since, i don't see any point. There are some play-by-email(like corewar ^_^), though. Links that you might find interesting: http ://d irec tory.google.com/Top/Games/Video_Games/Genres/Simulation/Programming_Games/ http://tpga.virtualave.net/ I'm still looking for a decent _3D_ simulation of space/air combat with support for pluggable AI, btw. If you find any, could you pelase email me some links? THX --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 01-09-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From corewar-l@koth.org Tue Nov 6 05:36:51 2001 Received: from no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (NO-SPAM.it.helsinki.fi [128.214.205.34]) by kantti.Helsinki.FI (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA63aoW25646 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2001 05:36:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from odin.ttsg.com (root@odin.ttsg.com [216.231.111.29]) by no-spam.it.helsinki.fi (8.11.4/8.11.4-SPAMmers-sod-off) with ESMTP id fA63amV2553