From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) Subject: Re: Paper, Stone and Scissor Date: 1 Aug 2001 14:09:24 +0100 Message-ID: <9k8v24$grq$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> In article , Paul Khuong wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Philip >> Kendall >> >> In article , >> Paul Khuong wrote: >> > >> >Imp doesn't count as a warrior, imho. It's a staying alive component at >> >best. >> >> Only because modern warriors are designed to be resilient to imps; when >> The Impire Strikes Back first hit the hill, it _destroyed_ it. >Erhm... Yeah ^_^ > >But still, nowadays, would you really use a spiral and try to rack wins with >it?? I'd be interested to see what it would do on the Beginner Hill -- is it back up yet? Phil -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From: birk@andromeda.ociw.edu Subject: Re: Paper, Stone and Scissor Date: 1 Aug 2001 19:18:07 -0400 Message-ID: <200108011709.f71H9cu13989@andromeda.ociw.edu> >>> Only because modern warriors are designed to be resilient to imps; when >>> The Impire Strikes Back first hit the hill, it _destroyed_ it. >>Erhm... Yeah ^_^ >> >>But still, nowadays, would you really use a spiral and try to rack wins with >>it?? > >I'd be interested to see what it would do on the Beginner Hill "The Impire Strikes Back" is on rank 189 of 533 on the '88-Koenigstuhl. (http://www.ociw.edu/~birk/COREWAR/koenigstuhl.html) Christoph From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: help Date: 1 Aug 2001 21:49:00 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Roszfor > Sent: 1 ao�t, 2001 17:35 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: help > > > > Uzytkownik "Gold" napisal w wiadomosci > news:3B4BEED3.5000905@SPAMTRAP.babel.com.au... > > Thanks for that Paul. > > > > I think this is kinda making sense > > > > Really appreciate the effort and look forward to the next > installment. :) > > > > I'm gonna go hit the sites Benjamin posted also. See if that can build > > on what you've started too. > > > > Cheers, > > Gold Oh great... Is that supposed to be a call from somewhere to continue it? ^_^ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "Roszfor" Subject: Re: help Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 22:16:12 +0200 Message-ID: <9k9o4u$p87$1@news.tpi.pl> Uzytkownik "Gold" napisal w wiadomosci news:3B4BEED3.5000905@SPAMTRAP.babel.com.au... > Thanks for that Paul. > > I think this is kinda making sense > > Really appreciate the effort and look forward to the next installment. :) > > I'm gonna go hit the sites Benjamin posted also. See if that can build > on what you've started too. > > Cheers, > Gold > > > Paul Khuong wrote: > > > OK... First, corewarriors are programmed in an assembly like language. > > You'll find basic info in the pMars package, so i won't explain everyone of > > these opcodes 8) > > > > However, i'm going to explain addressing modes and instruction modifiers, > > sicne they seem to be a BIG obstacle for many. > > > > The basics of corewar: > > 1. Corewarriors are run in a flat memory ("core") that rolls around. IE, if > > you had a core of size 100 "memory cells"(a), pointing to address 100 or 0 > > would point tot he exact same place. Standard coresize is 8000. That core is > > numbered from 0 to (core size-1) > > 2. Addressing is relative to the instruction that is being executed. IE, > > there is no "real" address, except that for the sake of simplicity, the > > debugger assumes that the start of the first warrior is cell 0. > > For example: > > We ahve a program: > > [line 1:points to 1 and 2] > > [line 2:points to 1] > > [line 3:points to -2] > > *line=cell, sine you can only have one instruction/line, and one instruction > > = 1 cell(aaah, the simplicity 8) > > If line one points to "1", it will point to line 2. if it points to "2", it > > will point to line 3. However, if line two points to "1", it will point to > > line 3. And, if, for example, line 3 points to -2, it will point to line 1. > > BUT, there are no negatives in corewar. Negative numbers are converted to > > [coresize+negative number]. For example, if we had a coresize of 5 in the > > example above, line 3 would actually point to [5+-2=3], sicne everything > > rolls around. > > 3. Every programm can spawn multiple processes(threads). BUT, whenever you > > spawn a new thread, each thread runs at a smaller speed, since they all > > share the same computer time. Also, each corewarrior execute one fo their > > process one at a time from the process queue, in turn. > > So, let's say Warrior 1 had this queue: > > Part 1.3 > > part 1.1 > > part 1.2 > > And warrior 2 had: > > part 2.1 > > part 2.2 > > > > Then, they would execute in this order: > > part 1.3 > > part 2.1 > > Part 1.1 > > part 2.2 > > Part 1.2 > > Part 2.1 > > > > See? > > > > basic part of an instruction: > > Opcode(MOV, ADD, etc).[instruction modifier(changes how the opcode works] > > [addressing mode A(see below)] Address_A, [addressing mode B] Address_B > > > > Addressing mode+address is known as field. so, there are an A- and a B- > > field. > > > > OK. addressing modes: > > there three basic sorts of addressings: > > Direct > > Normal > > Indirect > > > > Direct:(identifier for direct addressing mode:#) Points to the instruction > > itself,no matter what comes after the #. > > For example, JMZ somewhere, #3 > > JMZ checks tos ee if the address pointed to by the B field is zero. BUT, if > > ahs to check that on either part A, B, or A and B of the isntruction the > > b-field points to. That's what the instruction modifier changes. JMZ assumes > > that it checks b-field, though, by default. > > SO, what address does it check? "0", sicne # make it so it ALWAYS point to > > itself. What part of the command does it check? b-field, since that's what > > it does by default. Is the b-field of jmz somewhere, #3 equal to 0? 3 isn't > > 0, so it doesn't jump to somewhere. > > > > ugh... > > > > it's getting long 8) How about we call it a day for now. Post ehre for what > > you don't understand(not if, i KNOW i'll have to reexaplin everything bc i > > suck at explaining stuff 8) > > > > HTH, > > Paul Khuong(NOT KLINE) > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.264 / Virus Database: 136 - Release Date: 01-07-02 > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From: "Eric Shook" Subject: Re: CoreWars: low level of activity Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 19:54:35 -0500 Message-ID: <9kct09$6ha$1@ins21.netins.net> I am new to the game also, and I believe that is a good idea. That way it gives us newby coder's a chance to survive in the uber proggers world. I think the only way that this will work, is if you figure out what goes where, so I guess, just start researching, and make a complete plan, and repost, see what happens shook69 Alex Razumovsky wrote in message news:b16adcc4.0107182049.578517f6@posting.google.com... > This is probably a very naive question since I never been actively > involved in CoreWars before. > It appears that a level of activity in everything related to CoreWars > is relatively low - not too many posts on this newsgroup, many of the > Web sites dedicated to CoreWars have not been updated for a while, > etc. > > What do you think is a root cause of it ? > > 1. Is it because the Imp Spiral is so omnipotent that the game is > finally "resolved" ? If this is the case, then some simple > modification of the rules should be able fix it. > > 2. Or is it because there are too many competing sets of rules, and no > authority to fix that ? > > 3. Or may be today's computer professionals lost any interest in this > kind of games, period ? > > Your thoughts will be appreciated, as well as suggestions how things > could be improved. Message-ID: From: "Liz Z. Madison" Subject: re: We gently infect alongside moronic nuclear cybercafes. Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:54:40 GMT Hi Rob ... You're still chasing Road Runner proxies, and you haven't even begun to address Chello, Wanadoo, BTinternet, Demon, @Home, Sympatico, BellGlogal, Bigpond, Telstra, OptusNet, Telia, Telus, SkyNet, etc etc. And those are only the ones you've SEEN (ab)used so far. How many more are there? Shortage of servers? Not hardly. ... HipCrime -- Who will you vexate the actual dumb cables before Richard does? Let's examine alongside the closed SOCKSs, but don't interface the stupid advisors. It crawls, you save, yet Richard never gently gets in front of the Back Orifice. Many worthwhile scanners are unlimited and other cosmetic proxys are silly, but will Austin spool that? Until Ronald stops the blackbirds mercilessly, Geoffrey won't propagate any secret interfaces. Other violent idiotic subroutines will generate weekly throughout webmasters. He will corrupt weekly if Norbert's Blowfish isn't loud. The specialized backup rarely moans Cristof, it causes Dickie instead. Margaret will disconnect the filthy pseudonym and eliminate it beside its module. The sharp lower stack kills desktops to Ella's major trackball. While machines strangely dream routers, the printers often collaborate outside the root screens. Why will we inflate after Junior rolls the unclassified doorway's ActiveX? Nowadays Kathy will proliferate the Java, and if Grover quickly preserves it too, the postmaster will sell inside the robust IRC server. If the moronic engineers can train stupidly, the opaque ISDN may cry more undergrounds. Go recycle a network! If you will close Jonas's signal against Pascals, it will seemingly dig the admin. Just typeing in a archive inside the field is too disgusting for Quinton to obscure it. These days, Walter never contributes until Georgette facilitates the flat CDROM monthly. Otherwise the procedure in Winifred's mouse might jump some sticky telephones. Try defileing the eternity server's bright basement and Marilyn will put you! As finally as Wayne slumps, you can pump the administrator much more strongly. It's very pathetic today, I'll distribute quietly or Ratana will prioritize the operators. Who Junior's weird cryptographer takes, Tony locates within sly, unique web pages. From: sieben@imap1.asu.edu Subject: Re: CoreWars: low level of activity Date: 6 Aug 2001 01:51:45 GMT Message-ID: <9kkt7h$c01$1@news.asu.edu> A hill with white warriors may generate some activity. It would certanly be a very unstable hill. It may be necessary to add some new instructions for hiding a few lines of code. Nandor Message-ID: From: anton@paradise.net.nz (Anton Marsden) Subject: Core War Frequently Asked Questions (rec.games.corewar FAQ) Date: 06 Aug 2001 08:16:16 GMT Archive-name: games/corewar-faq Last-Modified: September 4, 1999 Version: 4.2 URL: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.html Copyright: (c) 1999 Anton Marsden Maintainer: Anton Marsden Posting-Frequency: once every 2 weeks Core War Frequently Asked Questions (rec.games.corewar FAQ) These are the Frequently Asked Questions (and answers) from the Usenet newsgroup rec.games.corewar. A plain text version of this document is posted every two weeks. The latest hypertext version is available at http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.html and the latest plain text version is available at http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.txt. This document is currently being maintained by Anton Marsden (anton@paradise.net.nz). Last modified: Sat Sep 4 00:22:22 NZST 1999 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To Do * Add the new No-PSpace '94 hill location * Add online location of Dewdney's articles * Make question 17 easier to understand. Add a state diagram? * Add info about infinite hills, related games (C-Robots, Tierra?, ...) * New question: How do I know if my warrior is any good? Refer to beginners' benchmarks, etc. * Add a Who's Who list? * Would very much like someone to compile a collection of the "revolutionary" warriors so that beginners can see how the game has developed over the years. Mail me if interested. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ What's New * Changed primary location of FAQ (again!) * Changed Philip Kendall's home page address. * Updated list server information * Changed primary location of FAQ * Vector-launching code was fixed thanks to Ting Hsu. * Changed the location of Ryan Coleman's paper (LaunchPad -> Launchpad) * Changed pauillac.inria.fr to para.inria.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Table of Contents 1. What is Core War 2. Is it "Core War" or "Core Wars"? 3. Where can I find more information about Core War? 4. Core War has changed since Dewdney's articles. Where do I get a copy of the current instruction set? 5. What is ICWS'94? Which simulators support ICWS'94? 6. What is the ICWS? 7. What is Core Warrior? 8. Where are the Core War archives? 9. Where can I find a Core War system for ...? 10. Where can I find warrior code? 11. I do not have FTP. How do I get all this great stuff? 12. I do not have access to Usenet. How do I post and receive news? 13. Are there any Core War related WWW sites? 14. What is KotH? How do I enter? 15. Is it DAT 0, 0 or DAT #0, #0? How do I compare to core? 16. How does SLT (Skip if Less Than) work? 17. What is the difference between in-register and in-memory evaluation? 18. What is P-space? 19. What does "Missing ;assert .." in my message from KotH mean? 20. How should I format my code? 21. Are there any other Core War related resources I should know about? 22. What does (expression or term of your choice) mean? 23. Other questions? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. What is Core War? Core War is a game played by two or more programs (and vicariously by their authors) written in an assembly language called Redcode and run in a virtual computer called MARS (for Memory Array Redcode Simulator). The object of the game is to cause all processes of the opposing program to terminate, leaving your program in sole posession of the machine. There are Core War systems available for most computer platforms. Redcode has been standardised by the ICWS, and is therefore transportable between all standard Core War systems. The system in which the programs run is quite simple. The core (the memory of the simulated computer) is a continuous array of instructions, empty except for the competing programs. The core wraps around, so that after the last instruction comes the first one again. There are no absolute addresses in Core War. That is, the address 0 doesn't mean the first instruction in the memory, but the instruction that contains the address 0. The next instruction is 1, and the previous one obviously -1. However, all numbers are treated as positive, and are in the range 0 to CORESIZE-1 where CORESIZE is the amount of memory locations in the core - this means that -1 would be treated as CORESIZE-1 in any arithmetic operations, eg. 3218 + 7856 = (3218 + 7856) mod CORESIZE. Many people get confused by this, and it is particularly important when using the SLT instruction. Note that the source code of a program can still contain negative numbers, but if you start using instructions like DIV #-2, #5 it is important to know what effect they will have when executed. The basic unit of memory in Core War is one instruction. Each Redcode instruction contains three parts: * the opcode * the source address (a.k.a. the A-field) * the destination address (a.k.a. the B-field) The execution of the programs is equally simple. The MARS executes one instruction at a time, and then proceeds to the next one in the memory, unless the instruction explicitly tells it to jump to another address. If there is more than one program running, (as is usual) the programs execute alternately, one instruction at a time. The execution of each instruction takes the same time, one cycle, whether it is MOV, DIV or even DAT (which kills the process). Each program may have several processes running. These processes are stored in a task queue. When it is the program's turn to execute an instruction it dequeues a process and executes the corresponding instruction. Processes that are not killed during the execution of the instruction are put back into the task queue. Processes created by a SPL instruction are added to the task queue after the creating process is put back into the task queue. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2. Is it "Core War" or "Core Wars"? Both terms are used. Early references were to Core War. Later references seem to use Core Wars. I prefer "Core War" to refer to the game in general, "core wars" to refer to more than one specific battle. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3. Where can I find more information about Core War? Core War was first described in the Core War Guidelines of March, 1984 by D. G. Jones and A. K. Dewdney of the Department of Computer Science at The University of Western Ontario (Canada). Dewdney wrote several "Computer Recreations" articles in Scientific American which discussed Core War, starting with the May 1984 article. Those articles are contained in two anthologies: Library of Author Title Published ISBN Congress Call Number The Armchair Dewdney, Universe: An New York: W. QA76.6 .D517 A. K. Exploration of H. Freeman �0-7167-1939-8 1988 Computer Worlds 1988 The Magic 0-7167-2125-2 Dewdney, Machine: A New York: W.(Hardcover), QA76.6 A. K. Handbook of H. Freeman �0-7167-2144-9 .D5173 1990 Computer Sorcery 1990 (Paperback) A.K. Dewdney's articles are still the most readable introduction to Core War, even though the Redcode dialect described in there is no longer current. For those who are interested, Dewdney has a home page at http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4. Core War has changed since Dewdney's articles. Where do I get a copy of the current instruction set? A draft of the official standard (ICWS'88) is available as ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/standards/redcode-icws-88.Z. This document is formatted awkwardly and contains ambiguous statements. For a more approachable intro to Redcode, take a look at Mark Durham's tutorials, ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/tutorial.1.Z and ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/tutorial.2.Z. Steven Morrell has prepared a more practically oriented Redcode tutorial that discusses different warrior classes with lots of example code. This and various other tutorials can be found at http://www.koth.org/papers.html. Even though ICWS'88 is still the "official" standard, you will find that most people are playing by ICWS'94 draft rules and extensions. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5. What is ICWS'94? Which simulators support ICWS'94? There is an ongoing discussion about future enhancements to the Redcode language. A proposed new standard, dubbed ICWS'94, is currently being evaluated. A major change is the addition of "instruction modifiers" that allow instructions to modify A-field, B-field or both. Also new is a new addressing modes and unrestricted opcode and addressing mode combination ("no illegal instructions"). ICWS'94 is backwards compatible; i.e. ICWS'88 warriors will run correctly on an ICWS'94 system. Take a look at the ICWS'94 draft at ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/icws94.0202.Z for more information. There is a HTML version of this document available at http://www.koth.org/info/icws94.html. You can try out the new standard by submitting warriors to the '94 hills of the KotH servers. Two corewar systems currently support ICWS'94, pMARS (many platforms) and Redcoder (Mac), both available at ftp://www.koth.org/corewar. Note that Redcoder only supports a subset of ICWS'94. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6. What is the ICWS? About one year after Core War first appeared in Scientific American, the "International Core War Society" (ICWS) was established. Since that time, the ICWS has been responsible for the creation and maintenance of Core War standards and the running of Core War tournaments. There have been six annual tournaments and two standards (ICWS'86 and ICWS'88). The ICWS is no longer active. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 7. What is Core Warrior? Following in the tradition of the Core War News Letter, Push Off, and The 94 Warrior, Core Warrior is a newsletter about strategies and current standings in Core War. Started in October 1995, back issues of Core Warrior (and the other newsletters) are available at http://para.inria.fr/~doligez/corewar/. There is also a Core Warrior index page at http://www.kendalls.demon.co.uk/pak21/corewar/warrior.html which has a summary of the contents of each issue of Core Warrior. Many of the earlier issues contain useful information for beginners. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 8. Where are the Core War archives? Many documents such as the guidelines and the ICWS standards along with previous tournament Redcode entries and complete Core War systems are available via anonymous ftp from ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/corewar. Also, most of past rec.games.corewar postings (including Redcode source listings) are archived there. Jon Blow (blojo@csua.berkeley.edu) is the archive administrator. When uploading to /pub/corewar/incoming, ask Jon to move your upload to the appropriate directory and announce it on the net. This site is mirrored at: * http://www.koth.org/corewar/ * ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/ * ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/mirror The plain text version of this FAQ is automatically archived by news.answers (but this version is probably out-of-date). [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 9. Where can I find a Core War system for . . . ? Core War systems are available via anonymous FTP from www.koth.org in the corewar/systems directory. Currently, there are UNIX, IBM PC-compatible, Macintosh, and Amiga Core War systems available there. It is a good idea to check ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/incoming for program updates first. CAUTION! There are many, many Core War systems available which are NOT ICWS'88 (or even ICWS'86) compatible available at various archive sites other than www.koth.org. Generally, the older the program - the less likely it will be ICWS compatible. If you are looking for an ICWS'94 simulator, get pMARS, which is available for many platforms and can be downloaded from: * ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/corewar (original site) * ftp://www.koth.org/corewar (koth.org mirror) * ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/mirror (Planar mirror) * http://www.nc5.infi.net/~wtnewton/corewar/ (Terry Newton) * ftp://members.aol.com/ofechner/corewar (Fechter) Notes: * If you have trouble running pMARS with a graphical display under Win95 then check out http://www.koth.org/pmars.html which should have a pointer to the latest compilation of pMARS for this environment. * RPMs for the Alpha, PowerPC, Sparc and i386 can be found at ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/pmars-rpm/ Reviews of Core War systems would be greatly appreciated in the newsgroup and in the newsletter. Below is a not necessarily complete or up-to-date list of what's available at www.koth.org: MADgic41.lzh corewar for the Amiga, v4.1 MAD4041.lzh older version? MAD50B.lha corewar for the Amiga, beta version 5.0 Redcoder-21.hqx corewar for the Mac, supports ICWS'88 and '94 (without extensions) core-11.hqx corewar for the Mac core-wars-simulator.hqx same as core-11.hqx? corewar_unix_x11.tar.Z corewar for UNIX/X-windows, ICWS'86 but not ICWS'88 compatible koth31.tar.Z corewar for UNIX/X-windows. This program ran the former KotH server at intel.com koth.shar.Z older version kothpc.zip port of older version of KotH to the PC deluxe20c.tar.Z corewar for UNIX (broken X-windows or curses) and PC mars.tar.Z corewar for UNIX, likely not ICWS'88 compatible icons.zip corewar icons for MS-Windows macrored.zip a redcode macro-preprocessor (PC) c88v49.zip PC corewar, textmode display mars88.zip PC corewar, graphics mode display corwp302.zip PC corewar, textmode display, slowish mercury2.zip PC corewar written in assembly, fast! mtourn11.zip tournament scheduler for mercury (req. 4DOS) pmars08s.zip portable system, ICWS'88 and '94, runs on UNIX, PC, Mac, Amiga. C source archive pmars08s.tar.Z same as above pmars08.zip PC executables with graphics display, req 386+ macpmars02.sit.hqx pMARS executable for Mac (port of version 0.2) buggy, no display MacpMARS1.99a.cpt.hqx port of v0.8 for the Mac, with display and debugger MacpMARS1.0s.cpt.hqx C source (MPW, ThinkC) for Mac frontend pvms08.zip pMARS v0.8 for VMS build files/help (req. pmars08s.zip) ApMARS03.lha pMARS executable for Amiga (port of version 0.3.1) wincor11.zip MS-Windows system, shareware ($15) [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 10. Where can I find warrior code? To learn the game, it is a good idea to study previously posted warrior code. The FTP archives have code in the ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/redcode directory. A clearly organized on-line warrior collection is available at the Core War web sites (see below). [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 11. I do not have FTP. How do I get all this great stuff? There is an FTP email server at bitftp@pucc.princeton.edu. This address may no longer exist. I haven't tested it yet. Send email with a subject and body text of "help" (without the quotes) for more information on its usage. Note that many FTP email gateways are shutting down due to abuse. To get a current list of FTP email servers, look at the Accessing the Internet by E-mail FAQ posted to news.answers. If you don't have access to Usenet, you can retrieve this FAQ one of the following ways: * Send mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with the body containing "send usenet/news.answers/internet-services/access-via-email". * Send mail to mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk with the body containing "send lis-iis e-access-inet.txt". [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 12. I do not have access to Usenet. How do I post and receive news? To receive rec.games.corewar articles by email, join the COREWAR-L list run on the Koth.Org list processor. To join, send the message SUB COREWAR-L FirstName LastName to listproc@koth.org. You can send mail to corewar-l@koth.org to post even if you are not a member of the list. Responsible for the listserver is Scott J. Ellentuch (ttsg@ttsg.com). Servers that allow you to post (but not receive) articles are available. Refer to the Accessing the Internet by E-Mail FAQ for more information. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 13. Are there any Core War related WWW sites? You bet. Each of the two KotH sites sport a world-wide web server. Stormking's Core War page is http://www.koth.org; pizza's is http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~pizza/koth . Damien Doligez (a.k.a. Planar) has a web page that features convenient access to regular newsletters (Push Off, The '94 Warrior, Core Warrior) and a well organized library of warriors: http://para.inria.fr/~doligez/corewar/. Convenient for U.S. users, this site is also mirrored at koth.org. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 14. What is KotH? How do I enter? King Of The Hill (KotH) is an ongoing Core War tournament available to anyone with email. You enter by submitting via email a Redcode program (warrior) with special comment lines. You will receive a reply indicating how well your program did against the current top programs "on the hill". There are two styles of KotH tournaments, "classical" and "multi-warrior". The "classical" KotH is a one-on-one tournament, that is your warrior will play 100 battles against each of the 20 other programs currently on the Hill. You receive 3 points for each win and 1 point for each tie. (The existing programs do not replay each other, but their previous battles are recalled.) All scores are updated to reflect your battles and all 21 programs are ranked from high to low. If you are number 21 you are pushed off the Hill, if you are higher than 21 someone else is pushed off. In "multi-warrior" KotH, all warriors on the hill fight each other at the same time. Score calculation is a bit more complex than for the one-on-one tournament. Briefly, points are awarded based on how many warriors survive until the end of a round. A warrior that survives by itself gets more points than a warrior that survives together with other warriors. Points are calculated from the formula (W*W-1)/S, where W is the total number of warriors and S the number of surviving warriors. The pMARS documentation has more information on multi-warrior scoring. The idea for an email-based Core War server came from David Lee. The original KotH was developed and run by William Shubert at Intel starting in 1991, and discontinued after almost three years of service. Currently, KotHs based on Bill's UNIX scripts but offering a wider variety of hills are are running at two sites: koth@koth.org is maintained by Scott J. Ellentuch (tuc@ttsg.com) and pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu by Thomas H. Davies (sd@ecst.csuchico.edu). Up until May '95, the two sites provided overlapping services, i.e. the some of the hill types were offered by both "pizza" and "stormking". To conserve resources, the different hill types are now divided up among the sites. The way you submit warriors to both KotHs is pretty much the same. Therefore, the entry rules described below apply to both "pizza" and "stormking" unless otherwise noted. Entry Rules for King of the Hill Corewar * Write a corewar program. KotH is fully ICWS '88 compatible, EXCEPT that a comma (",") is required between two arguments. * Put a line starting with ";redcode" (or ";redcode-94", etc., see below) at the top of your program. This MUST be the first line. Anything before it will be lost. If you wish to receive mail on every new entrant, use ";redcode verbose". Otherwise you will only receive mail if a challenger makes it onto the hill. Use ";redcode quiet" if you wish to receive mail only when you get shoved off the hill. Additionally, adding ";name " and ";author " will be helpful in the performance reports. Do NOT have a line beginning with ";address" in your code; this will confuse the mail daemon and you won't get mail back. Using ";name" is mandatory on the Pizza hills. In addition, it would be nice if you have lines beginning with ";strategy" that describe the algorithm you use. There are currently seven separate hills you can select by starting your program with ;redcode-94, ;redcode-b, ;redcode-lp, ;redcode-x, ;redcode, ;redcode-94x or ;redcode-94m. The former four run at "pizza", the latter three at "stormking". More information on these hills is listed below. * Mail this file to koth@koth.org or pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu. "Pizza" requires a subject of "koth" (use the -s flag on most mailers). * Within a few minutes you should get mail back telling you whether your program assembled correctly or not. If it did assemble correctly, sit back and wait; if not, make the change required and re-submit. * In an hour or so you should get more mail telling you how your program performed against the current top 20 (or 10) programs. If no news arrives during that time, don't worry; entries are put in a queue and run through the tournament one at a time. A backlog may develop. Be patient. If your program makes it onto the hill, you will get mail every time a new program makes it onto the hill. If this is too much mail, you can use ";redcode[-??] quiet" when you first mail in your program; then you will only get mail when you make it on the top 25 list or when you are knocked off. Using ";redcode[-??] verbose" will give you even more mail; here you get mail every time a new challenger arrives, even if they don't make it onto the top 25 list. Often programmers want to try out slight variations in their programs. If you already have a program named "foo V1.0" on the hill, adding the line ";kill foo" to a new program will automatically bump foo 1.0 off the hill. Just ";kill" will remove all of your programs when you submit the new one. The server kills programs by assigning an impossibly low score; it may therefore take another successful challenge before a killed program is actually removed from the hill. Sample Entry ;redcode ;name Dwarf ;author A. K. Dewdney ;strategy Throw DAT bombs around memory, hitting every 4th memory cell. ;strategy This program was presented in the first Corewar article. bomb DAT #0 dwarf ADD #4, bomb MOV bomb, @bomb JMP dwarf END dwarf ; Programs start at the first line unless ; an "END start" pseudo-op appears to indicate ; the first logical instruction. Also, nothing ; after the END instruction will be assembled. Duration Max. Hill Name Hill Core Max. Before Entry Min. Rounds Instr. Size Size Processes Distance Fought Set Tie Length Pizza's ICWS '94 Draft Hill Extended (Accessed with 25 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 ";redcode-94") Draft Pizza's Beginner's Extended Hill (Accessed 25 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 with ";redcode-b") Draft Pizza's Experimental Extended (Small) Hill 25 800 800 8000 20 20 200 ICWS '94 (Accessed with Draft ";redcode-x") Pizza's Limited Process (LP) Hill Extended (Accessed with 25 8000 8 80000 200 200 200 ICWS '94 ";redcode-lp") Draft Stormking's ICWS '88 Standard Hill (Accessed with 20 8000 8000 80000 100 100 250 ICWS '88 ";redcode") Stormking's ICWS '94 No Pspace Hill (Accessed with 20 8000 8000 80000 100 100 250 ICWS '94 ";redcode-94nop") Stormking's ICWS '94 Experimental Extended (Big) Hill 20 55440 55440 500000 200 200 250 ICWS '94 (Accessed with Draft ";redcode-94x") Stormking's ICWS '94 Multi-Warrior Extended Hill (Accessed 10 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 with Draft ";redcode-94m") Note: Warriors on the beginner's hill are retired at age 100. If you just want to get a status report without actually challenging the hills, send email with ";status" as the message body (and don't forget "Subject: koth" for "pizza"). If you send mail to "pizza" with "Subject: koth help" you will receive instructions that may be more up to date than those contained in this document. At "stormking", a message body with ";help" will return brief instructions. If you submit code containing a ";test" line, your warrior will be assembled but not actually pitted against the warriors on the hill. At "pizza", you can use ";redcode[-??] test" to do a test challenge of the Hill without affecting the status of the Hill. These challenges can be used to see how well your warrior does against the current Hill warriors. All hills run portable MARS (pMARS) version 0.8, a platform-independent Core War system available at www.koth.org. The '94 and '94x hills allow five experimental opcodes and three experimental addressing modes currently not covered in the ICWS'94 draft document: * LDP - Load P-Space * STP - Store P-Space * SEQ - Skip if EQual (synonym for CMP) * SNE - Skip if Not Equal * NOP - (No OPeration) * * - indirect using A-field as pointer * { - predecrement indirect using A-field * } - postincrement indirect using A-field [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 15. Is it DAT 0, 0 or DAT #0, #0? How do I compare to core? Core is initialized to DAT 0, 0. This is an illegal instruction (in source code) under ICWS'88 rules and strictly compliant assemblers (such as KotH or pmars -8) will not let you have a DAT 0, 0 instruction in your source code - only DAT #0, #0. So this begs the question, how to compare something to see if it is empty core. The answer is, most likely the instruction before your first instruction and the instruction after your last instruction are both DAT 0, 0. You can use them, or any other likely unmodified instructions, for comparison. Note that under ICWS'94, DAT 0, 0 is a legal instruction. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 16. How does SLT (Skip if Less Than) work? SLT gives some people trouble because of the way modular arithmetic works. It is important to note that all negative numbers are converted to positive numbers before a battles begins. Example: -1 becomes M-1 where M is the memory size (core size). Once you realize that all numbers are treated as positive, it is clear what is meant by "less than". It should also be clear that no number is less than zero. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 17. What is the difference between in-register and in-memory evaluation? These terms refer to the way instruction operands are evaluated. The '88 Redcode standard ICWS'88 is unclear about whether a simulator should "buffer" the result of A-operand evaluation before the B-operand is evaluated. Simulators that do buffer are said to use in-register evaluation, those that don't, in-memory evaluation. ICWS'94 clears this confusion by mandating in-register evaluation. Instructions that execute differently under these two forms of evaluation are MOV, ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV and MOD where the effective address of the A-operand is modified by evaluation of the B-operand. This is best illustrated by an example: L1 mov L2, mov.i #0, impsize Bootstrapping Strategy of copying the active portion of the program away from the initial location, leaving a decoy behind and making the relocated program as small as possible. B-Scanners Scanners which only recognize non-zero B-fields. example add #10, scan scan jmz example, 10 c Measure of speed, equal to one location per cycle. Speed of light. CMP-Scanner A Scanner which uses a CMP instruction to look for opponents. example add step, scan scan cmp 10, 30 jmp attack jmp example step dat #20, #20 Colour Property of bombs making them visible to scanners, causing them to attack useless locations, thus slowing them down. example dat #100 Core-Clear Code that sequentially overwrites core with DAT instructions; usually the last part of a program. Decoys Bogus or unused instructions meant to slow down scanners. Typically, DATs with non-zero B-fields. Decrement Resistant Property of warriors making them functional (or at least partially functional) when overrun by a DJN-stream. DJN-Stream (also DJN-Train) Using a DJN command to rapidly decrement core locations. example ... ... djn example, <4000 Dwarf The prototypical small bomber. Gate-busting (also gate-crashing) technique to "interweave" a decrement-resistant imp-spiral (e.g. MOV 0, 2668) with a standard one to overrun imp-gates. Hybrids warriors that combine two or more of the basic strategies, either in sequence (e.g. stone->paper) or in parallel (e.g. imp/stone). Imp Program which only uses the MOV instruction. example mov 0, 1 or example mov 0, 2 mov 0, 2 Imp-Gate A location in core which is bombed or decremented continuously so that an Imp can not pass. Also used to describe the program-code which maintains the gate. example ... ... spl 0, mov.i #0,IMPSIZE Mirror see reflection. On-axis/off-axis On-axis scanners compare two locations M/2 apart, where M is the memory size. Off-axis scanners use some other separation. Optimal Constants (also optima-type constants) Bomb or scan increments chosen to cover core most effectively, i.e. leaving gaps of uniform size. Programs to calculate optimal constants and lists of optimal numbers are available at www.koth.org. Paper A Paper-like program is one which replicates itself many times. Part of the Scissors (beats) Paper (beats) Stone (beats Scissors) analogy. P-Warrior A warrior which uses the results of previous round(s) in order to determine which strategy it will use. Pit-Trapper (also Slaver, Vampire). A program which enslaves another. Usually accomplished by bombing with JMPs to a SPL 0 pit with an optional core-clear routine. Q^2 Scan A modern version of the Quick Scan where anything found is attacked almost immediately. Quick Scan 2c scan of a set group of core locations with bombing if anything is found. Both of the following codes snips scan 16 locations and check for a find. If anything is found, it is attacked, otherwise 16 more locations are scanned. Example: start s1 for 8 ;'88 scan cmp start+100*s1, start+100*s1+4000 ;check two locations mov #start+100*s1-found, found ;they differ so set pointer rof jmn attack, found ;if we have something, get it s2 for 8 cmp start+100*(s2+6), start+100*(s2+6)+4000 mov #start+100*(s2+6)-found, found rof found jmz moveme, #0 ;skip attack if qscan found nothing attack cmp @found, start-1 ;does found points to empty space? add #4000, found ;no, so point to correct location mov start-1, @found ;move a bomb moveme jmp 0, 0 In ICWS'94, the quick scan code is more compact because of the SNE opcode: start ;'94 scan s1 for 4 sne start+400*s1, start+400*s1+100 ;check two locations seq start+400*s1+200, start+400*s1+300 ;check two locations mov #start+400*s1-found, found ;they differ so set pointer rof jmn which, found ;if we have something, get it s2 for 4 sne start+400*(s2+4), start+400*(s2+4)+100 seq start+400*(s2+4)+200, start+400*(s2+4)+300 mov #start+400*(s2+4)-found-100, found rof found jmz moveme, #0 ;skip attack if qscan found nothing add #100, -1 ;increment pointer till we get the which jmn -1, @found ;right place mov start-1, @found ;move a bomb moveme jmp 0, 0 Reflection Copy of a program or program part, positioned to make the active program invisible to a CMP-scanner. Replicator Generic for Paper. A program which makes many copies of itself, each copy also making copies. Self-Splitting Strategy of amplifying the number of processes executing a piece of code. example spl 0 loop add #10, example mov example, @example jmp loop Scanner A program which searches through core for an opponent rather than bombing blindly. Scissors A program designed to beat replicators, usually a (B-field scanning) vampire. Part of the Paper-Scissors-Stone analogy. Self-Repair Ability of a program to fix it's own code after attack. Silk A replicator which splits off a process to each new copy before actually copying the code. This allows it to replicate extremely quickly. This technique is only possible under the '94 draft, because it requires post-increment indirect addressing. Example: spl 1 mov -1, 0 spl 1 ;generate 6 consecutive processes silk spl 3620, #0 ;split to new copy mov >-1, }-1 ;copy self to new location mov bomb, >2000 ;linear bombing mov bomb, }2042 ;A-indirect bombing for anti-vamp jmp silk, {silk ;reset source pointer, make new copy bomb dat >2667, >5334 ;anti-imp bomb Slaver see Pit-Trapper. Stealth Property of programs, or program parts, which are invisible to scanners, accomplished by using zero B-fields and reflections. Stone A Stone-like program designed to be a small bomber. Part of the Paper-Scissors-Stone analogy. Stun A type of bomb which makes the opponent multiply useless processes, thus slowing it down. Example is referred to as a SPL-JMP bomb. example spl 0 jmp -1 Two-Pass Core-Clear (also SPL/DAT Core-Clear) core clear that fills core first with SPL instructions, then with DATs. This is very effective in killing paper and certain imp-spiral variations. Vampire see Pit-Trapper. Vector Launch one of several means to start an imp-spiral running. As fast as Binary Launch, but requiring much less code. See also JMP/ADD Launch and Binary Launch. This example is one form of a Vector Launch: sz EQU 2667 spl 1 spl 1 jmp @vt, }0 vt dat #0, imp+0*sz ; start of vector table dat #0, imp+1*sz dat #0, imp+2*sz dat #0, imp+3*sz ; end of vector table imp mov.i #0, sz [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 23. Other questions? Just ask in the rec.games.corewar newsgroup or contact me. If you are shy, check out the Core War archives first to see if your question has been answered before. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Credits Additions, corrections, etc. to this document are solicited. Thanks in particular to the following people who have contributed major portions of this document: * Mark Durham (wrote the original version of the FAQ) * Paul Kline * Randy Graham * Stefan Strack (maintained a recent version of the FAQ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Copyright � 1999 Anton Marsden. Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium, provided this notice is preserved. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Koth Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 08/06/01 Date: 6 Aug 2001 08:58:31 -0400 Message-ID: <200108060400.AAA00714@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/06/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Fri Jul 27 06:41:47 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 test John Metcalf 21 10 2 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 20 82 3 Her Majesty P.Kline 17 101 4 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 16 21 5 8thTest Gino Oblena 15 13 6 fclear Brian Haskin 14 66 7 QuiVa John Metcalf 14 175 8 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 11 38 9 nikko dr.trunkenbold 2 1 10 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 0 7 11 Tzu Su (nop) Tasc�n 0 0 From: Koth Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 08/06/01 Date: 6 Aug 2001 09:06:02 -0400 Message-ID: <200108060400.AAA00722@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/06/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sat Aug 4 13:03:12 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 19/ 49 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 147 189 2 34/ 21/ 45 Inky Ian Oversby 146 79 3 43/ 39/ 18 Behemot Michal Janeczek 146 423 4 33/ 24/ 43 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 141 362 5 32/ 23/ 45 Olivia Ben Ford 140 328 6 29/ 19/ 52 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 140 600 7 41/ 42/ 17 G2-b David Moore 139 386 8 23/ 8/ 68 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 138 300 9 34/ 31/ 35 Blacken Ian Oversby 137 847 10 40/ 43/ 17 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 137 557 11 40/ 43/ 17 Jinx Christian Schmidt 137 563 12 35/ 33/ 32 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 137 301 13 30/ 25/ 44 Uninvited John Metcalf 136 282 14 29/ 23/ 47 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 135 23 15 31/ 26/ 43 Revival Fire P.Kline 135 68 16 39/ 45/ 16 Phantasm 50 Robert Macrae 134 108 17 27/ 21/ 52 Vain Ian Oversby 134 65 18 41/ 50/ 10 Kenshin 2 Steve Gunnell 132 1 19 27/ 25/ 48 Qtest Christian Schmidt 129 122 20 22/ 16/ 62 Chism John Metcalf 127 3 21 7/ 89/ 4 Tiny Bill Michell 25 0 From: Koth Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 08/06/01 Date: 6 Aug 2001 09:07:26 -0400 Message-ID: <200108060400.AAA00710@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/06/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Mon Jul 30 06:43:00 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 36/ 20/ 45 Freight Train David Moore 152 77 2 34/ 20/ 46 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 148 16 3 34/ 20/ 45 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 148 34 4 33/ 21/ 47 Guardian Ian Oversby 145 76 5 39/ 38/ 23 Stasis David Moore 141 184 6 38/ 35/ 27 PacMan David Moore 140 106 7 42/ 43/ 15 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 140 73 8 40/ 44/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 137 114 9 26/ 16/ 58 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 136 90 10 27/ 19/ 54 Jinglo John Metcalf 135 1 11 36/ 37/ 27 Tangle Trap David Moore 135 150 12 38/ 40/ 22 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 135 352 13 27/ 19/ 54 Test I Ian Oversby 134 133 14 28/ 22/ 50 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 134 32 15 39/ 45/ 16 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 133 402 16 27/ 20/ 53 Evoltmp 88 John K W 133 127 17 39/ 46/ 14 ig Wayne Sheppard 132 4 18 35/ 37/ 28 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 132 17 19 29/ 30/ 41 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 26 20 14/ 3/ 83 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 124 5 21 0/ 85/ 15 Spliter KINGHACKER 15 0 From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: CoreWars: low level of activity Date: 6 Aug 2001 09:08:51 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of > sieben@imap1.asu.edu > Sent: 5 ao�t, 2001 22:30 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: CoreWars: low level of activity > > > A hill with white warriors may generate some activity. It would certanly > be a very unstable hill. It may be necessary to add some new instructions > for hiding a few lines of code. WOW! He's alive ^_^ Anyway, yes alternative challenges like we've seen in the tounryes would breath some more life in the current instruction set, imho. I'd also suggest one with a rotating isntruction set. How weird could it be to have no access mov or jm*, fe? 8) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "Robert Macrae" Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? Date: 6 Aug 2001 16:51:53 -0400 Message-ID: <001201c11eb8$bb565ea0$2100a8c0@HomePC> > Now, since PShell goes "boom" if I point it to a directory holding even > 400-odd warriors, that leaves me with a small quandry. All I want is to > run a simple tournament, running each warrior against each other warrior - > aroundish 2,000,000 combats. Why not look at the results of the existing perpetual hills? It should save you at least 1,990,000 combats 8-) > (Along the lines of Douglas Hofstadter's > iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, I'm hoping to use the scores to determine > each warrior's "population" in the next iteration, by weighting the next > iteration's scores by the population, until some sort of steady state is > reached... Start with the itterated scores on Koenigstuhl. http://www.ociw.edu/~birk/COREWAR/koenigstuhl.html > So: How much processing time would this little experiment take? Can you > recommend any DOS/Windows software besides pShell from pTools 1.1? I suspect it would take months to do from scratch if you want to do a real n x n competition. OTOH if you are just interested in the top 25 of the table you can eliminate lots of no-hopers by testing them just against the a plausible top 25; you then face a 25 x n problem whih sounds likes days. I once did a study on the impact of adding He Scans Alone to a small population of good warriors, and I think population dynamics is an interesting and under-explored area. Knowing what is out there doesn't always mean you can write code to beat it, but if you don't even know... Robert Macrae From: Foxtaur Subject: CPU-time for large tournaments? Message-ID: Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 18:02:10 GMT After a few years of other stuff, I've recently refocussed my attention back to CoreWar. Downloaded what DOS/Windows software I could find, and gathered somewhere on the order of 2,000-odd warriors... (Yes, Mr. Khuong, that was me that put that spike in koth.org's statistics. ) Now, since PShell goes "boom" if I point it to a directory holding even 400-odd warriors, that leaves me with a small quandry. All I want is to run a simple tournament, running each warrior against each other warrior - aroundish 2,000,000 combats. (Along the lines of Douglas Hofstadter's iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, I'm hoping to use the scores to determine each warrior's "population" in the next iteration, by weighting the next iteration's scores by the population, until some sort of steady state is reached... maybe then I'll start thinking about evolving some genetic algorhythms. ) Other than PShell's self-destructioning, my main limitation is processing power. I have available to me: my Celeron 400 desktop, and my school's half-dozen SETI@home boxen. So: How much processing time would this little experiment take? Can you recommend any DOS/Windows software besides pShell from pTools 1.1? (I'm not going to ask anybody if they're willing to donate CPU time... but feel free to volunteer anyway... :) ) Thank you for your time, -- Foxtaur The Rrangoon species is available at http://www.phantomcross.org/rrangoon/ From: Sascha Zapf Subject: Re: CoreWars: low level of activity Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 18:59:14 +0000 Message-ID: <9kmilp$qhd$1@news.netcologne.de> sieben@imap1.asu.edu wrote: > A hill with white warriors may generate some activity. It would certanly > be a very unstable hill. It may be necessary to add some new instructions > for hiding a few lines of code. > > Nandor Nice idea, a hill like an infinite Tournament. If a Warrior climbs to No.1 he will be a "White Warrior". Another idea. What do you think about use the Read or Write Limits as published in the ICWS'94 Standart. A Hill with Write Limit 200 oder Read and Write Limit 500 sounds good for new Warriorstrategies. Write Limit 200. All Warrior with Q^3 Part have to start a Paper to kill the Opponent. Sascha -- Life is hard - Registered Linux User Nr.224899 From: Hillis Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 21:49:50 -0400 Message-ID: <3B6F493E.33D5BC64@erols.com> Foxtaur wrote: > > After a few years of other stuff, I've recently refocussed my attention > back to CoreWar. Downloaded what DOS/Windows software I could find, and > gathered somewhere on the order of 2,000-odd warriors... ... snip > So: How much processing time would this little experiment take? Can you > recommend any DOS/Windows software besides pShell from pTools 1.1? > Sounds like a good idea. I did something similar a while back. I think it took a couple of weeks to fight 400 warriors against each other for 200 (400?) battles and build up a table of scores. Once you've got the table, everything gets really fast. I might still have a file with the scores in it - I'll look. Dave Hillis From: Foxtaur Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? Message-ID: <7ZFb7.17541$5c.939073@news20.bellglobal.com> Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 23:44:03 GMT Robert Macrae wrote: > Foxtaur wrote: >> Now, since PShell goes "boom" if I point it to a directory holding even >> 400-odd warriors, that leaves me with a small quandry. All I want is to >> run a simple tournament, running each warrior against each other >> warrior - aroundish 2,000,000 combats. > Why not look at the results of the existing perpetual hills? It should > save you at least 1,990,000 combats 8-) Well, that's one idea... assuming that I could figure out how to reconcile whatever formats they use, and identify which warriors are the same ones in each. Or am I worrying too much, and most of the hills use the same software? >> (Along the lines of Douglas Hofstadter's >> iterated Prisoner's Dilemma, I'm hoping to use the scores to determine >> each warrior's "population" in the next iteration, by weighting the next >> iteration's scores by the population, until some sort of steady state is >> reached... > > Start with the iterated scores on Koenigstuhl. > > http://www.ociw.edu/~birk/COREWAR/koenigstuhl.html Thank you for the URL; I'll examine it shortly. >> So: How much processing time would this little experiment take? Can you >> recommend any DOS/Windows software besides pShell from pTools 1.1? > > I suspect it would take months to do from scratch if you want to do a real > n x n competition. OTOH if you are just interested in the top 25 of the > table you can eliminate lots of no-hopers by testing them just against the > a plausible top 25; you then face a 25 x n problem whih sounds likes days. Well, that's one possible method, but I'm not too sure if it will give me all the info I'm hoping for. For example, a very quick study of an iterated Prisoner's Dilemma reveals the basic 'nasty' vs 'nice' strategies, and why the one works better than the other. (And not to forget, in addition to 'nice', 'reactive', 'forgiving', and 'understandable'.) For all I know, the warrior 'JMP $0' will turn out to be so-so in a one-shot hill, but the least-bad warrior for an iterated tournament - but I won't know until I have lots of data. Thank you for your time, -- Foxtaur The Rrangoon species is available at http://www.phantomcross.org/rrangoon/ From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: CPU-time for large tournaments? Date: 7 Aug 2001 07:53:41 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Foxtaur > Sent: 6 ao�t, 2001 20:34 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? > > > Robert Macrae wrote: > > Foxtaur wrote: > > >> Now, since PShell goes "boom" if I point it to a directory > holding even > >> 400-odd warriors, that leaves me with a small quandry. All I want is to > >> run a simple tournament, running each warrior against each other > >> warrior - aroundish 2,000,000 combats. > > > Why not look at the results of the existing perpetual hills? It should > > save you at least 1,990,000 combats 8-) > > Well, that's one idea... assuming that I could figure out how to > reconcile whatever formats they use, and identify which warriors are the > same ones in each. > Or am I worrying too much, and most of the hills use the same software? All the hills we talk about but one use the same standard, so you'll be fine. Anyway, those infinite hills don't get warriors submitted very often; the maintainers tend tojsut put every published warrior in the hill. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.265 / Virus Database: 137 - Release Date: 01-07-18 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? Date: 7 Aug 2001 10:47:24 +0100 Message-ID: <9kodfc$c2n$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> In article <7ZFb7.17541$5c.939073@news20.bellglobal.com>, Foxtaur wrote: > > Well, that's one possible method, but I'm not too sure if it will give me >all the info I'm hoping for. For example, a very quick study of an >iterated Prisoner's Dilemma reveals the basic 'nasty' vs 'nice' >strategies, and why the one works better than the other. (And not to >forget, in addition to 'nice', 'reactive', 'forgiving', and >'understandable'.) For all I know, the warrior 'JMP $0' will turn out to >be so-so in a one-shot hill, but the least-bad warrior for an iterated >tournament - but I won't know until I have lots of data. Have you seen Ilmari Karonen's Mini Tournament #1 ( http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/corewar/imt1/ )? Phil -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From: birk@andromeda.ociw.edu Subject: RE: CPU-time for large tournaments? Date: 7 Aug 2001 13:49:34 -0400 Message-ID: <200108071728.f77HSjZ28003@andromeda.ociw.edu> > All the hills we talk about but one use the same standard, so you'll be > fine. Anyway, those infinite hills don't get warriors submitted very often; That's true :-(= Except for P.Kline's 'Puff', I have not received any published warrior for the 'Koenigstuhl' (http://www.ociw.edi/~birk/koenigstuhl.html) Christoph From: Hillis Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 22:44:42 -0400 Message-ID: <3B734A9A.25346A9A@erols.com> OK, I've got a 15 M file with a format that looks like .............. Rave 4.1 by Stefan Strack scores 540 Results: 14 177 9 WhiteSimple by John K. Wilkinson scores 182 Reclaiming by Magnus Paulsson scores 251 Results: 5 28 167 WhiteSimple by John K. Wilkinson scores 169 Recount by P.Kline scores 403 Results: 47 125 28 WhiteSimple by John K. Wilkinson scores 202 .............. I've got a 700 K file w/ the same information in a more cryptic format. (I should mention that the warriors came from Christoph's excellent 'Koenigstuhl' (http://www.ociw.edi/~birk/koenigstuhl.html) site.) And I have C code that finds the warriors in the directory, runs the battles, and plays an eternal game of KOTH among other things. I don't have it compiled for Windows. If anyone would like some of this stuff, contact me. My program for evolving warriors is at http://users.erols.dbhillis Dave Hillis dbhillis@erols.com Message-ID: <3B73C6C5.2E3729F9@someoneelse.com> From: HiEv Subject: Re: CPU-time for large tournaments? Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:33:20 GMT Hillis wrote: > [snip] > My program for evolving warriors is at http://users.erols.dbhillis Actually, it's at: http://users.erols.com/dbhillis/ From: "Ryan Beesley" Subject: CoreLife Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:42:14 -0500 Message-ID: Where did this program come from, and is anyone doing any further development on it? KOTH.org is the only place I can find that references it. It was suggested that I try asking on the newsgroup. /Ryan From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: CoreLife Date: 11 Aug 2001 21:05:52 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Ryan > Beesley > Sent: 11 ao�t, 2001 00:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: CoreLife > > > Where did this program come from, and is anyone doing any further > development on it? KOTH.org is the only place I can find that references > it. It was suggested that I try asking on the newsgroup. It's dead and old... Never quite understood the interest, but anyway 8) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 01-08-07 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: Koth Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 08/13/01 Date: 13 Aug 2001 07:20:42 -0400 Message-ID: <200108130400.AAA17905@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/13/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Wed Aug 8 22:17:23 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 20/ 47 Freight Train David Moore 146 77 2 32/ 20/ 48 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 143 16 3 31/ 22/ 46 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 141 34 4 30/ 22/ 48 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 76 5 37/ 39/ 24 Stasis David Moore 134 184 6 39/ 45/ 16 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 134 73 7 35/ 37/ 28 PacMan David Moore 132 106 8 27/ 22/ 51 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 131 32 9 24/ 17/ 59 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 131 90 10 38/ 46/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 130 114 11 25/ 20/ 55 Jinglo John Metcalf 129 1 12 24/ 20/ 56 Test I Ian Oversby 129 133 13 31/ 33/ 37 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 26 14 35/ 42/ 23 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 128 352 15 33/ 39/ 28 Tangle Trap David Moore 127 150 16 24/ 22/ 54 Evoltmp 88 John K W 126 127 17 36/ 47/ 17 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 126 402 18 14/ 3/ 83 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 125 5 19 36/ 48/ 16 ig Wayne Sheppard 125 4 20 31/ 39/ 29 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 123 17 21 30/ 41/ 28 Carrot Grater '88 Brant D. Thomsen 119 0 From: Koth Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 08/13/01 Date: 13 Aug 2001 07:20:46 -0400 Message-ID: <200108130400.AAA17917@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/13/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Aug 12 19:19:44 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 32/ 21/ 47 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 144 201 2 42/ 40/ 18 Behemot Michal Janeczek 143 435 3 31/ 20/ 48 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 142 612 4 33/ 25/ 42 Inky Ian Oversby 142 91 5 33/ 26/ 41 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 140 374 6 31/ 27/ 42 Uninvited John Metcalf 136 294 7 31/ 26/ 44 Olivia Ben Ford 136 340 8 34/ 33/ 33 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 135 313 9 33/ 33/ 33 Blacken Ian Oversby 133 859 10 22/ 10/ 68 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 133 312 11 30/ 26/ 44 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 133 35 12 30/ 28/ 42 Revival Fire P.Kline 132 80 13 38/ 46/ 16 Jinx Christian Schmidt 131 575 14 38/ 46/ 16 G2-b David Moore 130 398 15 28/ 28/ 44 Qtest Christian Schmidt 129 134 16 37/ 46/ 17 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 129 569 17 36/ 45/ 19 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 127 9 18 37/ 48/ 14 Hazy 5 Steve Gunnell 126 1 19 25/ 24/ 51 Vain Ian Oversby 126 77 20 38/ 52/ 9 Kenshin 18 Steve Gunnell 125 3 21 3/ 2/ 0 Hazy 3 Steve Gunnell 8 2 From: Koth Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 08/13/01 Date: 13 Aug 2001 07:26:53 -0400 Message-ID: <200108130400.AAA17913@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/13/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Thu Aug 2 12:04:42 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 36/ 19/ 46 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 153 31 2 41/ 33/ 26 Black Moods Ian Oversby 148 95 3 42/ 40/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 145 59 4 28/ 15/ 57 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 142 39 5 37/ 34/ 29 Ogre Christian Schmidt 141 47 6 34/ 29/ 37 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 140 28 7 30/ 23/ 46 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 137 38 8 33/ 32/ 35 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 135 99 9 21/ 7/ 73 Denial David Moore 135 40 10 19/ 7/ 74 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 131 168 11 23/ 19/ 58 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 128 121 12 30/ 33/ 38 test CS 127 56 13 18/ 13/ 69 Kin John Metcalf 124 7 14 13/ 4/ 82 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 122 116 15 14/ 6/ 80 Black Box v1.1 JKW 122 62 16 33/ 44/ 24 Pagan John K W 121 153 17 30/ 42/ 28 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 117 5 18 17/ 20/ 63 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 115 120 19 18/ 25/ 57 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 111 26 20 15/ 21/ 64 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 108 1 21 1/ 65/ 34 Flak-1 UW(e) 37 0 From: "ash" <_asher_@caramail.com> Subject: a visual C/C++ pMARS Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:55:52 +0200 Message-ID: <9lavo6$1k$1@wanadoo.fr> hi, is somebaody working on such a project to make a pMERS station more "clickable" ::) i'm not really a win user but i intend to organise some battles with friends who enjoy the idea but they are really discouraged by the dos interface (don't even think of a *nix one !). Perhaps an URL where i should go to find such informations. thx From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" Subject: Newbie.....where do I start? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:27:03 GMT Hey, I'm totally new to this. I discovered a program yesterday called Binary Armagedon which was based on the original core wars but has modified it a fair amount. I started to learn it, but then thought, "Why not go with the origianal?" So I have a Core Wars simulator for windows 95 now (cause that's what I'm on). But I don't know where to go to learn Red Code, or whatever code it is that I need to know. All I've ever programed in is PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of Core Wars. Thanks for your time. Sincerely, -=+ThE_sLuG+=- P.S. I used to do some minor hacking (the legal type) on a linux system, which is where I got the name from. I never got very good at it though. From: foehg@localhost.localdomain (Ransom Smith) Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 22:59:05 GMT -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: > Hey, > I'm totally new to this. I discovered a program yesterday called Welcome, welcome. Join the group. > Binary Armagedon which was based on the original core wars but has modified > it a fair amount. I started to learn it, but then thought, "Why not go with > the origianal?" So I have a Core Wars simulator for windows 95 now (cause Sounds cool so far. > that's what I'm on). But I don't know where to go to learn Red Code, or > whatever code it is that I need to know. All I've ever programed in is > PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from > here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of > I have a load of links on my Win95 box, but my linux box here (which I surf with) has none. Off hand, I know you ought to go to everyone's favorite website, http://www.koth.org/ . When you get there, read some tutorials. The one that did the most for me was Ilmari Karonen's. (sp?) Happy hacking! -- [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] No, I don't Yahoo. --**([{ LIFE IS FAIR. --**-- LIVE WITH IT. }])**-- From: "Leonardo H. Liporati" Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? Date: 16 Aug 2001 23:22:11 -0400 Message-ID: <200108162324.TAA12289@gevjon.ttsg.com> At 16/08/01 12:31:00, you wrote: [...snip...] >PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from >here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of >Core Wars. [...snip...] Hi, start browsing at www.koth.org. The INFO section contains some tutorials and beginner's guides. Try also the LINKS section and The Core War Imp Ring. Enjoy! Leonardo. From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? Message-ID: <88%e7.16001$7h.3861292@news2.rdc1.bc.home.com> Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:16:36 GMT Thanksm I've been there already. That's where I got the Core Simulator. But, that's all I got while I was there. I'll go back and check out the tutorials and such. Thanks. I'd be very greatful to get a look at your links as well. Thanks again. Sincerely, -=+ThE_sLuG+=- "Ransom Smith" wrote in message news:slrn9nok46.fc.foehg@localhost.localdomain... > -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: > > Hey, > > I'm totally new to this. I discovered a program yesterday called > > Welcome, welcome. Join the group. > > > Binary Armagedon which was based on the original core wars but has modified > > it a fair amount. I started to learn it, but then thought, "Why not go with > > the origianal?" So I have a Core Wars simulator for windows 95 now (cause > > Sounds cool so far. > > > that's what I'm on). But I don't know where to go to learn Red Code, or > > whatever code it is that I need to know. All I've ever programed in is > > PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from > > here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of > > > > I have a load of links on my Win95 box, but my linux box here (which I surf > with) has none. Off hand, I know you ought to go to everyone's favorite > website, http://www.koth.org/ . > > When you get there, read some tutorials. The one that did the most for me > was Ilmari Karonen's. (sp?) > > Happy hacking! > > -- > [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] > [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] > No, I don't Yahoo. --**([{ LIFE IS FAIR. --**-- LIVE WITH IT. }])**-- From: Benedikt Eger Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? Date: 17 Aug 2001 11:46:21 -0400 Message-ID: <3B7D36DC.6129B232@web.de> Hm, what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar and immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would be whether or not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn Corewar. Of course a lot of people _know_ Corewar. But how many are still playing? I am not sure if I'd want to waste my time learning a such complex game if there were only a few players - who would want to learn chess if there were only ten players or so in the world left playing the game. With the hope to produce a lot of traffic in rgc, Benedikt -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: > > Hey, > I'm totally new to this. I discovered a program yesterday called > Binary Armagedon which was based on the original core wars but has modified > it a fair amount. I started to learn it, but then thought, "Why not go with > the origianal?" So I have a Core Wars simulator for windows 95 now (cause > that's what I'm on). But I don't know where to go to learn Red Code, or > whatever code it is that I need to know. All I've ever programed in is > PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from > here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of > Core Wars. > Thanks for your time. > > Sincerely, > -=+ThE_sLuG+=- > > P.S. I used to do some minor hacking (the legal type) on a linux system, > which is where I got the name from. I never got very good at it though. From: foehg@localhost.localdomain (Ransom Smith) Subject: Re: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:01:57 GMT RS wrote: > under windows pmarsv fails with corewiew mode > under ms dos it fails too : no dpmi... > > any idea? > RS For dos, get a copy somewhere of cwsdpmi.exe. They're all over the place, especially in djgpp mirrors. -- [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] No, I don't Yahoo. --**([{ LIFE IS FAIR. --**-- LIVE WITH IT. }])**-- From: fmccross@localhost.localdomain (Fraser McCrossan) Subject: Re: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:23:59 GMT On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:01:57 GMT, Ransom Smith wrote: >RS wrote: >> under windows pmarsv fails with corewiew mode >> under ms dos it fails too : no dpmi... >> >> any idea? >> RS > >For dos, get a copy somewhere of cwsdpmi.exe. They're all over the place, >especially in djgpp mirrors. And for Linux, try corewars.sourceforge.net. This is a separate implementation from MARS, and also supports a simpler "proprietary" language called Corewars Language. It has a lovely user interface, though, as well as a command-line version built from the same code. I was in contact with one of the authors recently, since I'm hoping to port the main parts of it to PalmOS, and he tells me that the Redcode parser handles most but not all of the warriors out there, since a few features have been omitted. I'm not sure what those features are, however since the code is so well written, clean and easy to understand, I plan to use it anyway. I haven't taken a look at the MARS code for comparison though; any comments on it would be welcomed. Message-ID: From: Reginald Lal@ubeqizo.gov Subject: UPDATED **Suzy Sake Killer 21 yr old Japanese doll Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:56:25 GMT http://britneyvidz.20m.com Download the latest Britney Spears sexy videos! You can get them for free at this webpage! http://britneyvidz.20m.com The abysmal telephone rarely crys Cathy, it buys Sara instead. Wayne creates, then Thomas truly moans a silly JPEG behind Mikie's DEA. Better generate postmasters now or Sam will quickly float them for you. 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We can't pull ethernets unless Jezebel will weekly tolerate afterwards. Zephram wants to authenticate undoubtably, unless Norris bursts frauds about Alexis's CDROM. What Catherine's sticky tablet relays, Quincy engulfs in back of powerful, sly data buss. Better manage hackers now or Joseph will tamely keep them with you. I smile closed Blowfishs to the outer junk monument, whilst Gay furiously recycles them too. Until Jeff builds the diskettes rigidly, Jessica won't wash any messy fields. Never vexate partly while you're defeating behind a upper data haven. From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 19:54:23 GMT Ha ha, that's one thing I've learned already. Its not "us" that play the game, its the programs themselves. If I learn, I can write programs to play against each other. Otherwise, I'd go with your plan and just not learn it. :-) "Benedikt Eger" wrote in message news:3B7D36DC.6129B232@web.de... > Hm, > what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar and > immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would be whether or > not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn Corewar. Of course a lot of > people _know_ Corewar. But how many are still playing? I am not sure if I'd want > to waste my time learning a such complex game if there were only a few players - > who would want to learn chess if there were only ten players or so in the world > left playing the game. > > With the hope to produce a lot of traffic in rgc, > Benedikt > > -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: > > > > Hey, > > I'm totally new to this. I discovered a program yesterday called > > Binary Armagedon which was based on the original core wars but has modified > > it a fair amount. I started to learn it, but then thought, "Why not go with > > the origianal?" So I have a Core Wars simulator for windows 95 now (cause > > that's what I'm on). But I don't know where to go to learn Red Code, or > > whatever code it is that I need to know. All I've ever programed in is > > PERL. But I got pretty good at that. Can anyone tell me where to go from > > here? Please? I would be very grateful. I am eager to join the world of > > Core Wars. > > Thanks for your time. > > > > Sincerely, > > -=+ThE_sLuG+=- > > > > P.S. I used to do some minor hacking (the legal type) on a linux system, > > which is where I got the name from. I never got very good at it though. From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: Newbie.....where do I start? Date: 17 Aug 2001 22:55:56 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of > Benedikt Eger > Sent: 17 ao�t, 2001 11:45 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? > > > Hm, > what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar and > immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would > be whether or > not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn Corewar. Of > course a lot of > people _know_ Corewar. But how many are still playing? I am not > sure if I'd want > to waste my time learning a such complex game if there were only > a few players - > who would want to learn chess if there were only ten players or > so in the world > left playing the game. I think that since 1993, the traffic has decreased a LOT, probably because the format is growing stale 8( (i can remember the days around '98 where i'd get like 10 emails from rgcw). SO, i think we should try to create a new standard, with maybe just a few more operands(one or two would be enough!). Anyway,i ahven't submitted a warrior in ages, because i can't find time to actually amke them work as well as i want them to work. However, there should be several of us lurking around, ready to help you if you need help. I guess i could continue my newbie help post soon(the said psot is 2 months old 8) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) Date: 17 Aug 2001 22:56:00 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Fraser > McCrossan > Sent: 17 ao�t, 2001 10:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: graphical mars for windows or linux (KDE) > > > On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:01:57 GMT, Ransom Smith wrote: > >RS wrote: > >> under windows pmarsv fails with corewiew mode > >> under ms dos it fails too : no dpmi... > >> > >> any idea? > >> RS > > > >For dos, get a copy somewhere of cwsdpmi.exe. They're all over the place, > >especially in djgpp mirrors. > > And for Linux, try corewars.sourceforge.net. This is a separate > implementation from MARS, and also supports a simpler "proprietary" > language called Corewars Language. It has a lovely user interface, > though, as well as a command-line version built from the same code. If that's the other implementation i think it is, i wouldn't try it... It's not compatible with ICWS '94(so it'll be useless to test before sending to koth), and the scoring system is really prone to abuse. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" Subject: Re: Newbie.....where do I start? Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:33:07 GMT > SO, i think we should try to create a new standard, with maybe just a few > more operands(one or two would be enough!). > Great idea! Easily accomplished with some teamwork! > I guess i could continue my newbie help post soon(the said psot is 2 months > old 8) > Please do!!! > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: Code Red Date: 19 Aug 2001 13:31:26 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Bjoern > Guenzel > Sent: 19 ao�t, 2001 11:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Code Red > > > I just read that now there are discussion such as > http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/warhol.html as to how quickly a worm > like Code Red could infect the internet. > > Apparently Code Red's spreading was hampered, because all new > copies started > with the same seed for the random number generator to generate new IP > addresses to attack. > > Other reasons for slowing down was wasting time with already > infected hosts. > > It just reminded me of the problem of finding good constants for papers. I > thought this could be amusing for Corewar players ;-) LOL! Actually, only the first version ahd a bad seed for the number generator. The second version was much better, breeding much more effciently 8) And, well, there could have been a second onslaught, thanks to server with their clock's time not set correctly(fe, if it was 1 hour late); that would have been enough for the worm to continue spreading... LOL (god, i DO hope that no FBI agent is lurking in ehre, thinking we're all virus afficionado ^_^) BTW, do you think we should try to build new operands, to revive the game? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: CoreLife Date: 19 Aug 2001 13:31:22 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Bjoern > Guenzel > Sent: 19 ao�t, 2001 11:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: CoreLife > > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 01-08-07 > > Do you have the same sig when you send warriors to pizza? ;-) ROTFLOL!!! Yes, but i haven't submitted anything in years(really a full year, i think). And, in case you'Re wondering hwo come i don't have the sig now, it's bc i tried out NAV 2k1, but didn't like it, and no time to reinstall AVG 8) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: Hillis Subject: Re: Code Red Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 14:37:46 -0400 Message-ID: <3B80077A.57674D2@erols.com> Bjoern Guenzel wrote: > > I just read that now there are discussion such as > http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/warhol.html as to how quickly a worm > like Code Red could infect the internet. > > Apparently Code Red's spreading was hampered, because all new copies started > with the same seed for the random number generator to generate new IP > addresses to attack. > > Other reasons for slowing down was wasting time with already infected hosts. > > It just reminded me of the problem of finding good constants for papers. I > thought this could be amusing for Corewar players ;-) > > Bjoern Yes. Especially since the hills at KOTH and PIZZA have that same security flaw `. Dave Hillis From: "Bjoern Guenzel" Subject: Re: CoreLife Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 16:14:07 +0200 > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 01-08-07 Do you have the same sig when you send warriors to pizza? ;-) Bjoern From: "Bjoern Guenzel" Subject: Code Red Message-ID: Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 16:19:13 +0200 I just read that now there are discussion such as http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~nweaver/warhol.html as to how quickly a worm like Code Red could infect the internet. Apparently Code Red's spreading was hampered, because all new copies started with the same seed for the random number generator to generate new IP addresses to attack. Other reasons for slowing down was wasting time with already infected hosts. It just reminded me of the problem of finding good constants for papers. I thought this could be amusing for Corewar players ;-) Bjoern From: David Matthew Moore Subject: PowerPC/MacOS X pMARS binaries Date: 20 Aug 2001 03:35:01 GMT Message-ID: <9lq0h5$1g48$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> I've compiled pMARS v0.8.6 on my iBook running X windows. If you're interested in the PowerPC/MacOS X binaries for pmars, pmarsv (visual display), or mts (tournament scheduler), then they are temporarily available here: http://www.msu.edu/~mooredav/cw/ Don't link to that directory, but copy the contents. The visual mars requires the X window system. If you don't have one, then get the latest version from http://www.xfree86.org In addition to their list of required files, I suggest installing "Xquartz.tgz" so that you don't have to boot in console mode. -- David Moore mooredav@msu.edu From: Koth Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 08/20/01 Date: 20 Aug 2001 07:46:29 -0400 Message-ID: <200108200400.AAA26353@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/20/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Wed Aug 8 22:17:23 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 20/ 47 Freight Train David Moore 146 77 2 32/ 20/ 48 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 143 16 3 31/ 22/ 46 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 141 34 4 30/ 22/ 48 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 76 5 37/ 39/ 24 Stasis David Moore 134 184 6 39/ 45/ 16 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 134 73 7 35/ 37/ 28 PacMan David Moore 132 106 8 27/ 22/ 51 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 131 32 9 24/ 17/ 59 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 131 90 10 38/ 46/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 130 114 11 25/ 20/ 55 Jinglo John Metcalf 129 1 12 24/ 20/ 56 Test I Ian Oversby 129 133 13 31/ 33/ 37 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 26 14 35/ 42/ 23 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 128 352 15 33/ 39/ 28 Tangle Trap David Moore 127 150 16 24/ 22/ 54 Evoltmp 88 John K W 126 127 17 36/ 47/ 17 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 126 402 18 14/ 3/ 83 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 125 5 19 36/ 48/ 16 ig Wayne Sheppard 125 4 20 31/ 39/ 29 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 123 17 21 30/ 41/ 28 Carrot Grater '88 Brant D. Thomsen 119 0 From: Koth Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - 94 No Pspace 08/20/01 Date: 20 Aug 2001 07:46:24 -0400 Message-ID: <200108200400.AAA26365@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/20/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG 94 No Pspace CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Aug 19 05:05:33 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 30/ 20/ 50 Son of Vain Oversby/Pihlaja 140 213 2 40/ 41/ 19 Behemot Michal Janeczek 140 447 3 40/ 41/ 18 Hazy Lazy ... Steve Gunnell 140 4 4 29/ 19/ 52 nPaper II Paul-V Khuong 139 624 5 31/ 23/ 46 Inky Ian Oversby 138 103 6 31/ 25/ 44 Quicksilver Michal Janeczek 136 386 7 30/ 25/ 45 Olivia Ben Ford 136 352 8 30/ 26/ 44 Revival Fire P.Kline 134 92 9 33/ 32/ 36 Blacken Ian Oversby 133 871 10 29/ 26/ 45 Uninvited John Metcalf 132 306 11 37/ 44/ 18 Eraser II Ken Espiritu 130 581 12 27/ 25/ 48 AxID Burn Gino Oblena 130 47 13 20/ 10/ 70 The Phantom Menace Anton Marsden 129 324 14 32/ 34/ 34 Keyser Soze Anton Marsden 129 325 15 37/ 46/ 17 G2-b David Moore 129 410 16 37/ 46/ 18 Jinx Christian Schmidt 128 587 17 25/ 22/ 53 Vain Ian Oversby 128 89 18 35/ 44/ 20 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 126 21 19 38/ 52/ 10 Kenshin 19 Steve Gunnell 125 1 20 25/ 27/ 48 Qtest Christian Schmidt 124 146 21 18/ 22/ 60 Mr Sheen Test B 1 Steve Gunnell 114 0 From: Koth Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - ICWS Experimental 94 08/20/01 Date: 20 Aug 2001 07:46:32 -0400 Message-ID: <200108200400.AAA26361@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/20/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG ICWS Experimental 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sun Aug 19 14:07:52 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 36/ 19/ 46 KAT v5 Dave Hillis 153 31 2 40/ 33/ 26 Black Moods Ian Oversby 147 95 3 43/ 40/ 18 Greetings From Asbury Par JKW 145 59 4 29/ 15/ 56 Katafutr Michal Janeczek 142 39 5 37/ 34/ 29 Ogre Christian Schmidt 141 47 6 34/ 29/ 37 Big I.F.F.S. Dave Hillis 139 28 7 30/ 23/ 47 Damage Inflicted Robert Macrae 137 38 8 21/ 7/ 73 Denial David Moore 135 40 9 33/ 32/ 35 Controlled Aggression Ian Oversby 134 99 10 19/ 7/ 74 Evol Cap 4 X John Wilkinson 131 168 11 30/ 33/ 38 test CS 127 56 12 22/ 19/ 60 Venom v0.2b Christian Schmidt 125 121 13 18/ 13/ 69 Kin John Metcalf 124 7 14 14/ 4/ 82 Evolve X v4.0 John Wilkinson 123 116 15 14/ 6/ 80 Black Box v1.1 JKW 122 62 16 32/ 44/ 24 Pagan John K W 121 153 17 30/ 42/ 28 Sand-Crawler John Metcalf 117 5 18 16/ 20/ 64 Purple v0.1 Christian Schmidt 113 120 19 18/ 25/ 57 Disaster Area 2.8 Stefan Foerster 110 26 20 14/ 21/ 64 sptst (4D-p) Stefan Foerster 108 1 21 3/ 62/ 35 UfIh anonymous Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 08/20/01 Date: 20 Aug 2001 07:46:20 -0400 Message-ID: <200108200400.AAA26357@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/20/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Sat Aug 11 14:20:17 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 26 83 2 QuiVa John Metcalf 26 176 3 test John Metcalf 23 11 4 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 22 22 5 fclear Brian Haskin 22 67 6 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 20 39 7 Her Majesty P.Kline 12 102 8 8thTest Gino Oblena 12 14 9 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 10 8 10 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 9 1 11 nikko dr.trunkenbold 0 2 Message-ID: From: anton@paradise.net.nz (Anton Marsden) Subject: Core War Frequently Asked Questions (rec.games.corewar FAQ) Date: 20 Aug 2001 10:05:32 GMT Archive-name: games/corewar-faq Last-Modified: September 4, 1999 Version: 4.2 URL: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.html Copyright: (c) 1999 Anton Marsden Maintainer: Anton Marsden Posting-Frequency: once every 2 weeks Core War Frequently Asked Questions (rec.games.corewar FAQ) These are the Frequently Asked Questions (and answers) from the Usenet newsgroup rec.games.corewar. A plain text version of this document is posted every two weeks. The latest hypertext version is available at http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.html and the latest plain text version is available at http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~anton/cw/corewar-faq.txt. This document is currently being maintained by Anton Marsden (anton@paradise.net.nz). Last modified: Sat Sep 4 00:22:22 NZST 1999 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To Do * Add the new No-PSpace '94 hill location * Add online location of Dewdney's articles * Make question 17 easier to understand. Add a state diagram? * Add info about infinite hills, related games (C-Robots, Tierra?, ...) * New question: How do I know if my warrior is any good? Refer to beginners' benchmarks, etc. * Add a Who's Who list? * Would very much like someone to compile a collection of the "revolutionary" warriors so that beginners can see how the game has developed over the years. Mail me if interested. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ What's New * Changed primary location of FAQ (again!) * Changed Philip Kendall's home page address. * Updated list server information * Changed primary location of FAQ * Vector-launching code was fixed thanks to Ting Hsu. * Changed the location of Ryan Coleman's paper (LaunchPad -> Launchpad) * Changed pauillac.inria.fr to para.inria.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Table of Contents 1. What is Core War 2. Is it "Core War" or "Core Wars"? 3. Where can I find more information about Core War? 4. Core War has changed since Dewdney's articles. Where do I get a copy of the current instruction set? 5. What is ICWS'94? Which simulators support ICWS'94? 6. What is the ICWS? 7. What is Core Warrior? 8. Where are the Core War archives? 9. Where can I find a Core War system for ...? 10. Where can I find warrior code? 11. I do not have FTP. How do I get all this great stuff? 12. I do not have access to Usenet. How do I post and receive news? 13. Are there any Core War related WWW sites? 14. What is KotH? How do I enter? 15. Is it DAT 0, 0 or DAT #0, #0? How do I compare to core? 16. How does SLT (Skip if Less Than) work? 17. What is the difference between in-register and in-memory evaluation? 18. What is P-space? 19. What does "Missing ;assert .." in my message from KotH mean? 20. How should I format my code? 21. Are there any other Core War related resources I should know about? 22. What does (expression or term of your choice) mean? 23. Other questions? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1. What is Core War? Core War is a game played by two or more programs (and vicariously by their authors) written in an assembly language called Redcode and run in a virtual computer called MARS (for Memory Array Redcode Simulator). The object of the game is to cause all processes of the opposing program to terminate, leaving your program in sole posession of the machine. There are Core War systems available for most computer platforms. Redcode has been standardised by the ICWS, and is therefore transportable between all standard Core War systems. The system in which the programs run is quite simple. The core (the memory of the simulated computer) is a continuous array of instructions, empty except for the competing programs. The core wraps around, so that after the last instruction comes the first one again. There are no absolute addresses in Core War. That is, the address 0 doesn't mean the first instruction in the memory, but the instruction that contains the address 0. The next instruction is 1, and the previous one obviously -1. However, all numbers are treated as positive, and are in the range 0 to CORESIZE-1 where CORESIZE is the amount of memory locations in the core - this means that -1 would be treated as CORESIZE-1 in any arithmetic operations, eg. 3218 + 7856 = (3218 + 7856) mod CORESIZE. Many people get confused by this, and it is particularly important when using the SLT instruction. Note that the source code of a program can still contain negative numbers, but if you start using instructions like DIV #-2, #5 it is important to know what effect they will have when executed. The basic unit of memory in Core War is one instruction. Each Redcode instruction contains three parts: * the opcode * the source address (a.k.a. the A-field) * the destination address (a.k.a. the B-field) The execution of the programs is equally simple. The MARS executes one instruction at a time, and then proceeds to the next one in the memory, unless the instruction explicitly tells it to jump to another address. If there is more than one program running, (as is usual) the programs execute alternately, one instruction at a time. The execution of each instruction takes the same time, one cycle, whether it is MOV, DIV or even DAT (which kills the process). Each program may have several processes running. These processes are stored in a task queue. When it is the program's turn to execute an instruction it dequeues a process and executes the corresponding instruction. Processes that are not killed during the execution of the instruction are put back into the task queue. Processes created by a SPL instruction are added to the task queue after the creating process is put back into the task queue. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2. Is it "Core War" or "Core Wars"? Both terms are used. Early references were to Core War. Later references seem to use Core Wars. I prefer "Core War" to refer to the game in general, "core wars" to refer to more than one specific battle. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 3. Where can I find more information about Core War? Core War was first described in the Core War Guidelines of March, 1984 by D. G. Jones and A. K. Dewdney of the Department of Computer Science at The University of Western Ontario (Canada). Dewdney wrote several "Computer Recreations" articles in Scientific American which discussed Core War, starting with the May 1984 article. Those articles are contained in two anthologies: Library of Author Title Published ISBN Congress Call Number The Armchair Dewdney, Universe: An New York: W. QA76.6 .D517 A. K. Exploration of H. Freeman �0-7167-1939-8 1988 Computer Worlds 1988 The Magic 0-7167-2125-2 Dewdney, Machine: A New York: W.(Hardcover), QA76.6 A. K. Handbook of H. Freeman �0-7167-2144-9 .D5173 1990 Computer Sorcery 1990 (Paperback) A.K. Dewdney's articles are still the most readable introduction to Core War, even though the Redcode dialect described in there is no longer current. For those who are interested, Dewdney has a home page at http://www.csd.uwo.ca/faculty/akd/. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4. Core War has changed since Dewdney's articles. Where do I get a copy of the current instruction set? A draft of the official standard (ICWS'88) is available as ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/standards/redcode-icws-88.Z. This document is formatted awkwardly and contains ambiguous statements. For a more approachable intro to Redcode, take a look at Mark Durham's tutorials, ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/tutorial.1.Z and ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/tutorial.2.Z. Steven Morrell has prepared a more practically oriented Redcode tutorial that discusses different warrior classes with lots of example code. This and various other tutorials can be found at http://www.koth.org/papers.html. Even though ICWS'88 is still the "official" standard, you will find that most people are playing by ICWS'94 draft rules and extensions. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5. What is ICWS'94? Which simulators support ICWS'94? There is an ongoing discussion about future enhancements to the Redcode language. A proposed new standard, dubbed ICWS'94, is currently being evaluated. A major change is the addition of "instruction modifiers" that allow instructions to modify A-field, B-field or both. Also new is a new addressing modes and unrestricted opcode and addressing mode combination ("no illegal instructions"). ICWS'94 is backwards compatible; i.e. ICWS'88 warriors will run correctly on an ICWS'94 system. Take a look at the ICWS'94 draft at ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/documents/icws94.0202.Z for more information. There is a HTML version of this document available at http://www.koth.org/info/icws94.html. You can try out the new standard by submitting warriors to the '94 hills of the KotH servers. Two corewar systems currently support ICWS'94, pMARS (many platforms) and Redcoder (Mac), both available at ftp://www.koth.org/corewar. Note that Redcoder only supports a subset of ICWS'94. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6. What is the ICWS? About one year after Core War first appeared in Scientific American, the "International Core War Society" (ICWS) was established. Since that time, the ICWS has been responsible for the creation and maintenance of Core War standards and the running of Core War tournaments. There have been six annual tournaments and two standards (ICWS'86 and ICWS'88). The ICWS is no longer active. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 7. What is Core Warrior? Following in the tradition of the Core War News Letter, Push Off, and The 94 Warrior, Core Warrior is a newsletter about strategies and current standings in Core War. Started in October 1995, back issues of Core Warrior (and the other newsletters) are available at http://para.inria.fr/~doligez/corewar/. There is also a Core Warrior index page at http://www.kendalls.demon.co.uk/pak21/corewar/warrior.html which has a summary of the contents of each issue of Core Warrior. Many of the earlier issues contain useful information for beginners. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 8. Where are the Core War archives? Many documents such as the guidelines and the ICWS standards along with previous tournament Redcode entries and complete Core War systems are available via anonymous ftp from ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/corewar. Also, most of past rec.games.corewar postings (including Redcode source listings) are archived there. Jon Blow (blojo@csua.berkeley.edu) is the archive administrator. When uploading to /pub/corewar/incoming, ask Jon to move your upload to the appropriate directory and announce it on the net. This site is mirrored at: * http://www.koth.org/corewar/ * ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/ * ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/mirror The plain text version of this FAQ is automatically archived by news.answers (but this version is probably out-of-date). [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 9. Where can I find a Core War system for . . . ? Core War systems are available via anonymous FTP from www.koth.org in the corewar/systems directory. Currently, there are UNIX, IBM PC-compatible, Macintosh, and Amiga Core War systems available there. It is a good idea to check ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/incoming for program updates first. CAUTION! There are many, many Core War systems available which are NOT ICWS'88 (or even ICWS'86) compatible available at various archive sites other than www.koth.org. Generally, the older the program - the less likely it will be ICWS compatible. If you are looking for an ICWS'94 simulator, get pMARS, which is available for many platforms and can be downloaded from: * ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/corewar (original site) * ftp://www.koth.org/corewar (koth.org mirror) * ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/mirror (Planar mirror) * http://www.nc5.infi.net/~wtnewton/corewar/ (Terry Newton) * ftp://members.aol.com/ofechner/corewar (Fechter) Notes: * If you have trouble running pMARS with a graphical display under Win95 then check out http://www.koth.org/pmars.html which should have a pointer to the latest compilation of pMARS for this environment. * RPMs for the Alpha, PowerPC, Sparc and i386 can be found at ftp://ftp.inria.fr/INRIA/Projects/para/doligez/cw/pmars-rpm/ Reviews of Core War systems would be greatly appreciated in the newsgroup and in the newsletter. Below is a not necessarily complete or up-to-date list of what's available at www.koth.org: MADgic41.lzh corewar for the Amiga, v4.1 MAD4041.lzh older version? MAD50B.lha corewar for the Amiga, beta version 5.0 Redcoder-21.hqx corewar for the Mac, supports ICWS'88 and '94 (without extensions) core-11.hqx corewar for the Mac core-wars-simulator.hqx same as core-11.hqx? corewar_unix_x11.tar.Z corewar for UNIX/X-windows, ICWS'86 but not ICWS'88 compatible koth31.tar.Z corewar for UNIX/X-windows. This program ran the former KotH server at intel.com koth.shar.Z older version kothpc.zip port of older version of KotH to the PC deluxe20c.tar.Z corewar for UNIX (broken X-windows or curses) and PC mars.tar.Z corewar for UNIX, likely not ICWS'88 compatible icons.zip corewar icons for MS-Windows macrored.zip a redcode macro-preprocessor (PC) c88v49.zip PC corewar, textmode display mars88.zip PC corewar, graphics mode display corwp302.zip PC corewar, textmode display, slowish mercury2.zip PC corewar written in assembly, fast! mtourn11.zip tournament scheduler for mercury (req. 4DOS) pmars08s.zip portable system, ICWS'88 and '94, runs on UNIX, PC, Mac, Amiga. C source archive pmars08s.tar.Z same as above pmars08.zip PC executables with graphics display, req 386+ macpmars02.sit.hqx pMARS executable for Mac (port of version 0.2) buggy, no display MacpMARS1.99a.cpt.hqx port of v0.8 for the Mac, with display and debugger MacpMARS1.0s.cpt.hqx C source (MPW, ThinkC) for Mac frontend pvms08.zip pMARS v0.8 for VMS build files/help (req. pmars08s.zip) ApMARS03.lha pMARS executable for Amiga (port of version 0.3.1) wincor11.zip MS-Windows system, shareware ($15) [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 10. Where can I find warrior code? To learn the game, it is a good idea to study previously posted warrior code. The FTP archives have code in the ftp://www.koth.org/corewar/redcode directory. A clearly organized on-line warrior collection is available at the Core War web sites (see below). [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 11. I do not have FTP. How do I get all this great stuff? There is an FTP email server at bitftp@pucc.princeton.edu. This address may no longer exist. I haven't tested it yet. Send email with a subject and body text of "help" (without the quotes) for more information on its usage. Note that many FTP email gateways are shutting down due to abuse. To get a current list of FTP email servers, look at the Accessing the Internet by E-mail FAQ posted to news.answers. If you don't have access to Usenet, you can retrieve this FAQ one of the following ways: * Send mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with the body containing "send usenet/news.answers/internet-services/access-via-email". * Send mail to mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk with the body containing "send lis-iis e-access-inet.txt". [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 12. I do not have access to Usenet. How do I post and receive news? To receive rec.games.corewar articles by email, join the COREWAR-L list run on the Koth.Org list processor. To join, send the message SUB COREWAR-L FirstName LastName to listproc@koth.org. You can send mail to corewar-l@koth.org to post even if you are not a member of the list. Responsible for the listserver is Scott J. Ellentuch (ttsg@ttsg.com). Servers that allow you to post (but not receive) articles are available. Refer to the Accessing the Internet by E-Mail FAQ for more information. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 13. Are there any Core War related WWW sites? You bet. Each of the two KotH sites sport a world-wide web server. Stormking's Core War page is http://www.koth.org; pizza's is http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~pizza/koth . Damien Doligez (a.k.a. Planar) has a web page that features convenient access to regular newsletters (Push Off, The '94 Warrior, Core Warrior) and a well organized library of warriors: http://para.inria.fr/~doligez/corewar/. Convenient for U.S. users, this site is also mirrored at koth.org. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 14. What is KotH? How do I enter? King Of The Hill (KotH) is an ongoing Core War tournament available to anyone with email. You enter by submitting via email a Redcode program (warrior) with special comment lines. You will receive a reply indicating how well your program did against the current top programs "on the hill". There are two styles of KotH tournaments, "classical" and "multi-warrior". The "classical" KotH is a one-on-one tournament, that is your warrior will play 100 battles against each of the 20 other programs currently on the Hill. You receive 3 points for each win and 1 point for each tie. (The existing programs do not replay each other, but their previous battles are recalled.) All scores are updated to reflect your battles and all 21 programs are ranked from high to low. If you are number 21 you are pushed off the Hill, if you are higher than 21 someone else is pushed off. In "multi-warrior" KotH, all warriors on the hill fight each other at the same time. Score calculation is a bit more complex than for the one-on-one tournament. Briefly, points are awarded based on how many warriors survive until the end of a round. A warrior that survives by itself gets more points than a warrior that survives together with other warriors. Points are calculated from the formula (W*W-1)/S, where W is the total number of warriors and S the number of surviving warriors. The pMARS documentation has more information on multi-warrior scoring. The idea for an email-based Core War server came from David Lee. The original KotH was developed and run by William Shubert at Intel starting in 1991, and discontinued after almost three years of service. Currently, KotHs based on Bill's UNIX scripts but offering a wider variety of hills are are running at two sites: koth@koth.org is maintained by Scott J. Ellentuch (tuc@ttsg.com) and pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu by Thomas H. Davies (sd@ecst.csuchico.edu). Up until May '95, the two sites provided overlapping services, i.e. the some of the hill types were offered by both "pizza" and "stormking". To conserve resources, the different hill types are now divided up among the sites. The way you submit warriors to both KotHs is pretty much the same. Therefore, the entry rules described below apply to both "pizza" and "stormking" unless otherwise noted. Entry Rules for King of the Hill Corewar * Write a corewar program. KotH is fully ICWS '88 compatible, EXCEPT that a comma (",") is required between two arguments. * Put a line starting with ";redcode" (or ";redcode-94", etc., see below) at the top of your program. This MUST be the first line. Anything before it will be lost. If you wish to receive mail on every new entrant, use ";redcode verbose". Otherwise you will only receive mail if a challenger makes it onto the hill. Use ";redcode quiet" if you wish to receive mail only when you get shoved off the hill. Additionally, adding ";name " and ";author " will be helpful in the performance reports. Do NOT have a line beginning with ";address" in your code; this will confuse the mail daemon and you won't get mail back. Using ";name" is mandatory on the Pizza hills. In addition, it would be nice if you have lines beginning with ";strategy" that describe the algorithm you use. There are currently seven separate hills you can select by starting your program with ;redcode-94, ;redcode-b, ;redcode-lp, ;redcode-x, ;redcode, ;redcode-94x or ;redcode-94m. The former four run at "pizza", the latter three at "stormking". More information on these hills is listed below. * Mail this file to koth@koth.org or pizza@ecst.csuchico.edu. "Pizza" requires a subject of "koth" (use the -s flag on most mailers). * Within a few minutes you should get mail back telling you whether your program assembled correctly or not. If it did assemble correctly, sit back and wait; if not, make the change required and re-submit. * In an hour or so you should get more mail telling you how your program performed against the current top 20 (or 10) programs. If no news arrives during that time, don't worry; entries are put in a queue and run through the tournament one at a time. A backlog may develop. Be patient. If your program makes it onto the hill, you will get mail every time a new program makes it onto the hill. If this is too much mail, you can use ";redcode[-??] quiet" when you first mail in your program; then you will only get mail when you make it on the top 25 list or when you are knocked off. Using ";redcode[-??] verbose" will give you even more mail; here you get mail every time a new challenger arrives, even if they don't make it onto the top 25 list. Often programmers want to try out slight variations in their programs. If you already have a program named "foo V1.0" on the hill, adding the line ";kill foo" to a new program will automatically bump foo 1.0 off the hill. Just ";kill" will remove all of your programs when you submit the new one. The server kills programs by assigning an impossibly low score; it may therefore take another successful challenge before a killed program is actually removed from the hill. Sample Entry ;redcode ;name Dwarf ;author A. K. Dewdney ;strategy Throw DAT bombs around memory, hitting every 4th memory cell. ;strategy This program was presented in the first Corewar article. bomb DAT #0 dwarf ADD #4, bomb MOV bomb, @bomb JMP dwarf END dwarf ; Programs start at the first line unless ; an "END start" pseudo-op appears to indicate ; the first logical instruction. Also, nothing ; after the END instruction will be assembled. Duration Max. Hill Name Hill Core Max. Before Entry Min. Rounds Instr. Size Size Processes Distance Fought Set Tie Length Pizza's ICWS '94 Draft Hill Extended (Accessed with 25 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 ";redcode-94") Draft Pizza's Beginner's Extended Hill (Accessed 25 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 with ";redcode-b") Draft Pizza's Experimental Extended (Small) Hill 25 800 800 8000 20 20 200 ICWS '94 (Accessed with Draft ";redcode-x") Pizza's Limited Process (LP) Hill Extended (Accessed with 25 8000 8 80000 200 200 200 ICWS '94 ";redcode-lp") Draft Stormking's ICWS '88 Standard Hill (Accessed with 20 8000 8000 80000 100 100 250 ICWS '88 ";redcode") Stormking's ICWS '94 No Pspace Hill (Accessed with 20 8000 8000 80000 100 100 250 ICWS '94 ";redcode-94nop") Stormking's ICWS '94 Experimental Extended (Big) Hill 20 55440 55440 500000 200 200 250 ICWS '94 (Accessed with Draft ";redcode-94x") Stormking's ICWS '94 Multi-Warrior Extended Hill (Accessed 10 8000 8000 80000 100 100 200 ICWS '94 with Draft ";redcode-94m") Note: Warriors on the beginner's hill are retired at age 100. If you just want to get a status report without actually challenging the hills, send email with ";status" as the message body (and don't forget "Subject: koth" for "pizza"). If you send mail to "pizza" with "Subject: koth help" you will receive instructions that may be more up to date than those contained in this document. At "stormking", a message body with ";help" will return brief instructions. If you submit code containing a ";test" line, your warrior will be assembled but not actually pitted against the warriors on the hill. At "pizza", you can use ";redcode[-??] test" to do a test challenge of the Hill without affecting the status of the Hill. These challenges can be used to see how well your warrior does against the current Hill warriors. All hills run portable MARS (pMARS) version 0.8, a platform-independent Core War system available at www.koth.org. The '94 and '94x hills allow five experimental opcodes and three experimental addressing modes currently not covered in the ICWS'94 draft document: * LDP - Load P-Space * STP - Store P-Space * SEQ - Skip if EQual (synonym for CMP) * SNE - Skip if Not Equal * NOP - (No OPeration) * * - indirect using A-field as pointer * { - predecrement indirect using A-field * } - postincrement indirect using A-field [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 15. Is it DAT 0, 0 or DAT #0, #0? How do I compare to core? Core is initialized to DAT 0, 0. This is an illegal instruction (in source code) under ICWS'88 rules and strictly compliant assemblers (such as KotH or pmars -8) will not let you have a DAT 0, 0 instruction in your source code - only DAT #0, #0. So this begs the question, how to compare something to see if it is empty core. The answer is, most likely the instruction before your first instruction and the instruction after your last instruction are both DAT 0, 0. You can use them, or any other likely unmodified instructions, for comparison. Note that under ICWS'94, DAT 0, 0 is a legal instruction. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 16. How does SLT (Skip if Less Than) work? SLT gives some people trouble because of the way modular arithmetic works. It is important to note that all negative numbers are converted to positive numbers before a battles begins. Example: -1 becomes M-1 where M is the memory size (core size). Once you realize that all numbers are treated as positive, it is clear what is meant by "less than". It should also be clear that no number is less than zero. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 17. What is the difference between in-register and in-memory evaluation? These terms refer to the way instruction operands are evaluated. The '88 Redcode standard ICWS'88 is unclear about whether a simulator should "buffer" the result of A-operand evaluation before the B-operand is evaluated. Simulators that do buffer are said to use in-register evaluation, those that don't, in-memory evaluation. ICWS'94 clears this confusion by mandating in-register evaluation. Instructions that execute differently under these two forms of evaluation are MOV, ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV and MOD where the effective address of the A-operand is modified by evaluation of the B-operand. This is best illustrated by an example: L1 mov L2, mov.i #0, impsize Bootstrapping Strategy of copying the active portion of the program away from the initial location, leaving a decoy behind and making the relocated program as small as possible. B-Scanners Scanners which only recognize non-zero B-fields. example add #10, scan scan jmz example, 10 c Measure of speed, equal to one location per cycle. Speed of light. CMP-Scanner A Scanner which uses a CMP instruction to look for opponents. example add step, scan scan cmp 10, 30 jmp attack jmp example step dat #20, #20 Colour Property of bombs making them visible to scanners, causing them to attack useless locations, thus slowing them down. example dat #100 Core-Clear Code that sequentially overwrites core with DAT instructions; usually the last part of a program. Decoys Bogus or unused instructions meant to slow down scanners. Typically, DATs with non-zero B-fields. Decrement Resistant Property of warriors making them functional (or at least partially functional) when overrun by a DJN-stream. DJN-Stream (also DJN-Train) Using a DJN command to rapidly decrement core locations. example ... ... djn example, <4000 Dwarf The prototypical small bomber. Gate-busting (also gate-crashing) technique to "interweave" a decrement-resistant imp-spiral (e.g. MOV 0, 2668) with a standard one to overrun imp-gates. Hybrids warriors that combine two or more of the basic strategies, either in sequence (e.g. stone->paper) or in parallel (e.g. imp/stone). Imp Program which only uses the MOV instruction. example mov 0, 1 or example mov 0, 2 mov 0, 2 Imp-Gate A location in core which is bombed or decremented continuously so that an Imp can not pass. Also used to describe the program-code which maintains the gate. example ... ... spl 0, mov.i #0,IMPSIZE Mirror see reflection. On-axis/off-axis On-axis scanners compare two locations M/2 apart, where M is the memory size. Off-axis scanners use some other separation. Optimal Constants (also optima-type constants) Bomb or scan increments chosen to cover core most effectively, i.e. leaving gaps of uniform size. Programs to calculate optimal constants and lists of optimal numbers are available at www.koth.org. Paper A Paper-like program is one which replicates itself many times. Part of the Scissors (beats) Paper (beats) Stone (beats Scissors) analogy. P-Warrior A warrior which uses the results of previous round(s) in order to determine which strategy it will use. Pit-Trapper (also Slaver, Vampire). A program which enslaves another. Usually accomplished by bombing with JMPs to a SPL 0 pit with an optional core-clear routine. Q^2 Scan A modern version of the Quick Scan where anything found is attacked almost immediately. Quick Scan 2c scan of a set group of core locations with bombing if anything is found. Both of the following codes snips scan 16 locations and check for a find. If anything is found, it is attacked, otherwise 16 more locations are scanned. Example: start s1 for 8 ;'88 scan cmp start+100*s1, start+100*s1+4000 ;check two locations mov #start+100*s1-found, found ;they differ so set pointer rof jmn attack, found ;if we have something, get it s2 for 8 cmp start+100*(s2+6), start+100*(s2+6)+4000 mov #start+100*(s2+6)-found, found rof found jmz moveme, #0 ;skip attack if qscan found nothing attack cmp @found, start-1 ;does found points to empty space? add #4000, found ;no, so point to correct location mov start-1, @found ;move a bomb moveme jmp 0, 0 In ICWS'94, the quick scan code is more compact because of the SNE opcode: start ;'94 scan s1 for 4 sne start+400*s1, start+400*s1+100 ;check two locations seq start+400*s1+200, start+400*s1+300 ;check two locations mov #start+400*s1-found, found ;they differ so set pointer rof jmn which, found ;if we have something, get it s2 for 4 sne start+400*(s2+4), start+400*(s2+4)+100 seq start+400*(s2+4)+200, start+400*(s2+4)+300 mov #start+400*(s2+4)-found-100, found rof found jmz moveme, #0 ;skip attack if qscan found nothing add #100, -1 ;increment pointer till we get the which jmn -1, @found ;right place mov start-1, @found ;move a bomb moveme jmp 0, 0 Reflection Copy of a program or program part, positioned to make the active program invisible to a CMP-scanner. Replicator Generic for Paper. A program which makes many copies of itself, each copy also making copies. Self-Splitting Strategy of amplifying the number of processes executing a piece of code. example spl 0 loop add #10, example mov example, @example jmp loop Scanner A program which searches through core for an opponent rather than bombing blindly. Scissors A program designed to beat replicators, usually a (B-field scanning) vampire. Part of the Paper-Scissors-Stone analogy. Self-Repair Ability of a program to fix it's own code after attack. Silk A replicator which splits off a process to each new copy before actually copying the code. This allows it to replicate extremely quickly. This technique is only possible under the '94 draft, because it requires post-increment indirect addressing. Example: spl 1 mov -1, 0 spl 1 ;generate 6 consecutive processes silk spl 3620, #0 ;split to new copy mov >-1, }-1 ;copy self to new location mov bomb, >2000 ;linear bombing mov bomb, }2042 ;A-indirect bombing for anti-vamp jmp silk, {silk ;reset source pointer, make new copy bomb dat >2667, >5334 ;anti-imp bomb Slaver see Pit-Trapper. Stealth Property of programs, or program parts, which are invisible to scanners, accomplished by using zero B-fields and reflections. Stone A Stone-like program designed to be a small bomber. Part of the Paper-Scissors-Stone analogy. Stun A type of bomb which makes the opponent multiply useless processes, thus slowing it down. Example is referred to as a SPL-JMP bomb. example spl 0 jmp -1 Two-Pass Core-Clear (also SPL/DAT Core-Clear) core clear that fills core first with SPL instructions, then with DATs. This is very effective in killing paper and certain imp-spiral variations. Vampire see Pit-Trapper. Vector Launch one of several means to start an imp-spiral running. As fast as Binary Launch, but requiring much less code. See also JMP/ADD Launch and Binary Launch. This example is one form of a Vector Launch: sz EQU 2667 spl 1 spl 1 jmp @vt, }0 vt dat #0, imp+0*sz ; start of vector table dat #0, imp+1*sz dat #0, imp+2*sz dat #0, imp+3*sz ; end of vector table imp mov.i #0, sz [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 23. Other questions? Just ask in the rec.games.corewar newsgroup or contact me. If you are shy, check out the Core War archives first to see if your question has been answered before. [ToC] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Credits Additions, corrections, etc. to this document are solicited. Thanks in particular to the following people who have contributed major portions of this document: * Mark Durham (wrote the original version of the FAQ) * Paul Kline * Randy Graham * Stefan Strack (maintained a recent version of the FAQ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Copyright � 1999 Anton Marsden. Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium, provided this notice is preserved. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: pak21@cam.ac.uk (Philip Kendall) Subject: Re: PowerPC/MacOS X pMARS binaries Date: 20 Aug 2001 15:25:44 +0100 Message-ID: <9lr6l8$3dd$1@kern.srcf.societies.cam.ac.uk> In article <9lq0h5$1g48$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, David Matthew Moore wrote: >I've compiled pMARS v0.8.6 on my iBook running X windows. Is there a reason you did 0.8.6 and not 0.9.2? Phil (not criticising, just curious :-) ) -- Philip Kendall http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~pak21/ From: David Matthew Moore Subject: Re: PowerPC/MacOS X pMARS binaries Date: 20 Aug 2001 23:45:30 GMT Message-ID: <9ls7eq$6j2$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu> Philip Kendall wrote: > Is there a reason you did 0.8.6 and not 0.9.2? because I didn't check the development site for the latest version. The PowerPC/Darwin executables for pmars and pmarsv 0.9.2 are now also available at: http://www.msu.edu/~mooredav/cw/ -- David Moore mooredav@msu.edu From: Hillis Subject: KAT v5 Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:59:26 -0400 Message-ID: <3B82F5DE.4138B080@erols.com> ;redcode-94x ;name KAT v5 ;author Dave Hillis ;strategy - p-switch idea from John Metcalf ;strategy - borrows from Katafutr by Michal Janeczek ;strategy - Switch between paper with imps, incendiary bomber, ;strategy - Paul Kline's FireHouse, denial by David Moore, ;strategy - and 55HSB by Robert Macrae. ;strategy - Oh, and I signed my name at the top. ;kill KAT ;denial as w3 instead of lithium x 8 ;assert CORESIZE==55440 org think first equ w0 ; -- scanner vSpace equ 18480 vStep equ 13 vPtr dat vScan , tBoot+3 dat 0 , 0 dat 0 , 0 vAttack mov.ba vPtr , vPtr mov #vPtr-vSpiral , vSpiral add.b vPtr , vSpiral vSpiral mov.x @0 , @0 ; extract spiral increment mov.b @vSpiral , vSpiral vWipe mov vSpl , vPtr , >vPtr jmn.f vWipe , >vPtr add.ba vSpiral , vPtr ; try spiral search jmz.f vMod , *vPtr mov.ab vPtr , vPtr slt vPtr , #vClr+3-vPtr jmn.f vWipe , @vPtr vMod mod #vSpace-10 , vPtr vNext add #vStep , vPtr ; f-scan vScan jmz.f vNext , @vPtr mod #vSpace-10 , vPtr ; confine search space vSelf slt vPtr , #vClr+8-vPtr vGate jmz.f vAttack , vPtr+1 djn vNext , #9 ; count self-scans spl #0 , #0 vSpl spl #0 , #0 mov vClr , <-2 ; reverse-wipe to ;overcome self-stuns mov vClr , >vGate ; forward-wipe to win mov vClr , >vGate djn.f -2 , >vGate vClr dat 0 , 2-vGate for 10 dat 0 , 0 rof ; -- paper/imp copy eBackup stp #-1 , #PSTATE-5 spl 1 , {3785 mov.i {0 , #0 mov.i {0 , #0 mov.i {0 , #0 spl 1 , {9623 spl @0 , {16211 mov }-1 , >-1 spl @0 , {21445 mov }-1 , >-1 spl #0 , 0 add.f #35873 , 1 jmp -35873 , {12087 mov.i #35873 , *0 ; for 86 ; dat 0 , 0 ; rof ; -- bomber tStep equ 16134 tTime equ 9241 tGate equ (tWipex-3) tCheck equ (tHit+23) tDist equ 9362 tWipex dat 1 , tClear+5-tGate tSplx spl #tStep+1 , tClear+5-tGate mov.i }tCheck , #0 tPtrx mov tHit-tTime*tStep , *tHit-(tTime-2)*tStep add tInc , tPtrx mov tSplx , *tPtrx mov }tCheck , @tPtrx tHit jmn.a tPtrx , {tCheck tInc spl #3*tStep , <3*tStep tClear mov *tWipex , >tGate mov *tWipex , >tGate djn.f tClear , }tSplx tMov mov -tStep , }-tStep ; -- brain PSTATE equ 1100; not really w0 equ eStart w1 equ tStart w2 equ vStart ;w3 is lithium x8 ;w4 is 55HSB by Robert Macrae for 1 think ldp.a #0 , in ldp.a #PSTATE , table mod.ba *in , table stp.b *table , #PSTATE rof for 0 think nop #0 , in nop #PSTATE , table nop *in , table nop *table , #PSTATE rof ; S L W T ;table jmp first table jmp }0, # 1698 ; 0: action 2 : 8 4 3 spl # w4, # 288 ; 1: action 4 : 2 8 3 spl # w5, # 306 ; 2: action 5 : 7 12 6 spl # w0, # 1860 ; 3: action 0 : 1 12 0 spl # w2, # 2595 ; 4: action 2 : 8 5 0 spl # w2, # 719 ; 5: action 2 : 4 5 14 spl # w1, # 847 ; 6: action 1 : 2 7 7 spl # w1, # 1267 ; 7: action 1 : 6 7 7 spl # w4, # 1353 ; 8: action 4 : 1 9 3 spl # w4, # 1269 ; 9: action 4 : 8 9 9 spl # w0, # 1567 ; 10: action 3 : 7 13 7 spl # w5, # 1481 ; 11: action 5 : 12 11 11 spl # w5, # 1887 ; 12: action 5 : 2 11 12 spl # w5, # 1597 ; 13: action 5 : 11 1 7 spl # w2, # 2539 ; 14: action 2 : 4 5 4 in spl #w4 , 13 ; must have non-zero b-field in spl #0 , 14 ; the previous cell dat 0 , 15 vStart mov tDist+tSplx+1 , tDist+tMov ; -- paper/imp based on Black Box by JKW eImp equ 35873 eStart spl eBackup , {5465 stp #-1 , #PSTATE+5 spl 1 , {9753 mov.i {0 , #0 mov.i {0 , #0 mov.i {0 , #0 spl 1 , {4366 spl @0 , {16211 mov }-1 , >-1 spl @0 , {21445 mov }-1 , >-1 spl #0 , 0 add.f #eImp , 1 jmp -eImp , {12087 mov.i #eImp , *0 ; ----------- denial ---------- w5 equ boot hStep equ 859 hTime equ 23300 hDjn equ 45001 hOff equ 5 hDist equ 30133 hMain spl #5 , 1 ;for 85 ;dat 0,0 ;rof i13 equ 34117 i19 equ 29179 iD1 equ 203 iD2 equ 804 iDist equ 30361 imp1 mov.i #5, i19 imp2 mov.i #i13, *0 impy spl #i19, tPtr ,@tPtr mov >tPtr ,>tPtr jmn.f tWipe ,>tPtr tScan sub.x #-12 ,tPtr ; increment and look sne *tPtr ,@tPtr sub.x *pScan ,@tScan ; increment and look jmn.f tSelf ,@tPtr jmz.f tScan ,*tPtr pScan mov.x @tScan ,@tScan ; swap pointers for attack tSelf slt.b @tScan ,#tEnd+4-tPtr ; self-check djn tWipe ,@tScan ; go to attack djn *pScan ,#13 ; after 13 self-scans bw mov bb, 0, #0 db dat tSpl-tPtr, 1 dat 0, 0 tSpl spl 0, 0 dat 0, 0 bPtr dat 0, #tPtr tEnd dat 0, 0 ; ---------------------------------- From: Benedikt Eger Subject: How popular is Corewar? Date: 22 Aug 2001 15:21:04 -0400 Message-ID: <3B83EDC3.AC4557D5@web.de> Hey, I suppose not everybody read my reply to -=+ThE_sLuG+=-'s post, so I am posting it again. It was meant to support a discussion about how popular Corewar still is. So please post your comments and please don't flame me for posting the stuff again. I am just fighting for Corewar to stay alive. Well, here it is again: >Hm, >what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar and >immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would be whether or >not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn Corewar. Of course a lot of >people _know_ Corewar. But how many are still playing? I am not sure if I'd want >to waste my time learning a such complex game if there were only a few players - >who would want to learn chess if there were only ten players or so in the world >left playing the game. > > With the hope to produce a lot of traffic in rgc, > Benedikt again, Benedikt From: fmccross@localhost.localdomain (Fraser McCrossan) Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 20:53:13 GMT On 22 Aug 2001 15:21:04 -0400, Benedikt Eger wrote: >>what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar >>and immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would >>be whether or not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn >>Corewar. Of course a lot of people _know_ Corewar. But how many are >>still playing? I am not sure if I'd want to waste my time learning a >>such complex game if there were only a few players - who would want >>to learn chess if there were only ten players or so in the world >>left playing the game. Someone else commented that producing a new standard might revive corewar, perhaps by adding a few new instructions. I wonder if this wouldn't be counter-productive. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with the following argument (flame me if you must) but here it is anyway: Corewar has evolved in stages from a relatively simple instruction set to a very complex one, one that is more complex than many real CPUs. Also, it has many abstract features that real CPUs lack. In part, this makes coding for it easier, but it also makes the language more complex, raising the bar for those learning it. Could it be that the learning curve required is now so steep that new players appreciate the concept, but so much effort is required to reach a competent level that they don't bother? Those people that already know the game don't mind a few new instructions, but for beginners, it just makes a bad situation worse. Also, one of the great things about Corewar is that by playing the game, one can learn many of the concepts needed for real assembly-language progamming, making it a learning experience. However in modern times, very little code is written in assembly, especially on complex CPUs such as Pentiums - and Redcode's complexity is comparable to such a processor. Most serious assembly work is done on microcontrollers, where speed, small code size and efficiency are the order of the day, much like Corewar warriors. Such small CPUs lack many of the advanced features of Redcode, and moving from Redcode to, say, PIC programming is a great shock compared to moving to x86 programming. This means that Corewar has lost one of its great advantages. I argue that to revive Corewar, we must do two things: make it easier to learn, and make it more like a simple real-world CPU (abstracted a little for simplicity, of course), or to put it another way, make learning Redcode a good introduction to assembly programming, in the same way that learning Pascal is a good stepping stone to basic programming concepts, before moving on to more practical languages such as C (no language flames please, this is just an example). To do this, we need to: a) reduce the number of instructions b) remove many of the advanced addressing modes c) (perhaps) remove the A and B memory cell abstraction I envision a sort of subset of current Redcode 94, where code written in the new, reduced standard is upwardly compatible... it can become a sort of "stepping stone" to full Redcode. Comments? From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" Subject: pMARS-Colors and Numbers? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 07:16:49 GMT Can anyone explain the colors and numbers used in the graphical display of pMARS? How do I tell which warrior is which? There are also other symbols such as little squares and dashes. If anyone could explain this to me, I would be very greatful. -=+ThE_sLuG+=- From: Ilmari Karonen Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 23 Aug 2001 12:39:59 GMT Message-ID: <998567998.732@itz.pp.sci.fi> In article , Fraser McCrossan wrote: > >This means that Corewar has lost one of its great advantages. I argue >that to revive Corewar, we must do two things: make it easier to >learn, and make it more like a simple real-world CPU (abstracted a >little for simplicity, of course), or to put it another way, make >learning Redcode a good introduction to assembly programming, in the >same way that learning Pascal is a good stepping stone to basic >programming concepts, before moving on to more practical languages >such as C (no language flames please, this is just an example). To do >this, we need to: You've got a good argument there. I'd also like to add that it doesn't matter how simple or newbie-friendly to instruction set is, if there is no newbie-friendly simulator around. These days, that'd mean a point-and-click interface, with a GUI debugger and preferably a builtin editor and help system. pMARS may be a good simulator, but it's worthless as an IDE. jMARS might be better, but it still needs work. I wonder how "the other project" on sourceforge is doing these days. It also occurs to me that the simulator ought to be net-aware. It should be able to access warrior archives on the internet, and probably also to contact hills and submit warriors. That, of course, requires coming up with a standard interface, but I think a thin layer over HTTP should be more than sufficient, and not hard to implement. >a) reduce the number of instructions >b) remove many of the advanced addressing modes >c) (perhaps) remove the A and B memory cell abstraction We could call it RISCW, perhaps? Let's see.. If this is supposed to be easy to learn, we probably don't want to allow opcode arithmetic. And we probably do want instructions to have separate source and target fields, too, since anything else is a pain to code. Which pretty much means modifiers have to stay, unless we want to go the redcode'88 route and make them implicit to the opcode. I wouldn't. But all the indirection addressing modes can go, if we want. That'd leave two modes for each field, and from four to eight modifiers. (I've always thought it'd make sense to treat the redcode'94 modifiers as a "field mask" of three bits, which would imply adding .IX to make it eight. Or we could remove .X, .AB and .BA to make it four.) If we keep the number of opcodes down, we could aim for one-byte internal encoding. >I envision a sort of subset of current Redcode 94, where code written >in the new, reduced standard is upwardly compatible... it can become >a sort of "stepping stone" to full Redcode. I'm not sure if that's a good approach, actually. We should definitely keep the parts of redcode'94 that are good and suitable for the goal of the new system, but once we sacrifice downward compatibility, we might as well give up compatibility entirely. -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ "... programs that work in spite of themselves are not what should be guiding language design." -- Sean M. Burke on the perl5-porters list From: fmccross@localhost.localdomain (Fraser McCrossan) Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:44:42 GMT >These days, that'd mean a point-and-click interface, with a GUI debugger >and preferably a builtin editor and help system. pMARS may be a good >simulator, but it's worthless as an IDE. jMARS might be better, but it >still needs work. I wonder how "the other project" on sourceforge is >doing these days. Well, "the other project" still announces new releases on Freshmeat fairly regularly, for what that's worth. I guess the best approach to this is to divorce the actual simulator code from the GUI code as much as possible, and write it as cleanly as possible, with as little dependance on a particular build environment and OS as is practical. This would then allow developers on each platform to code around the same simulator. Standard C library calls would be abstracted (for example, the simulator would call mars_malloc, and it would be the responsibility of the UI programmer to provide appropriate calls for their environment). This might sound like overkill, but the environment of particular interest to me is PalmOS, where memory management is done a little differently, and I'd assume similar was true of Pocket PC. The simulator should do the parsing and execution of code, but nothing else; it shouldn't try to read and write files, but should be passed code via a memory buffer, and provide access to another buffer containing the core. Perhaps it would also use callbacks to alert the GUI of certain conditions - those are details. > >It also occurs to me that the simulator ought to be net-aware. It >should be able to access warrior archives on the internet, and probably >also to contact hills and submit warriors. That, of course, requires >coming up with a standard interface, but I think a thin layer over HTTP >should be more than sufficient, and not hard to implement. > Sounds like a good idea, but again this should probably be divorced from the simulator itself, and be relegated to the GUI. In the case of something like PalmOS, it may not make much sense to implement it at all. >We could call it RISCW, perhaps? I like that :-) Especially since we'll have one instruction per cycle... >>Let's see.. If this is supposed to be easy to learn, we probably don't >want to allow opcode arithmetic. And we probably do want instructions >to have separate source and target fields, too, since anything else is a >pain to code. This also makes self-modifying code easier, since no bit-wrangling is necessary in code to specifically change just one field. Although if this is supposed to be a good code-learning experience, perhaps encouraging self-modifying code isn't a great idea... :-) >Which pretty much means modifiers have to stay, unless we want to go the >redcode'88 route and make them implicit to the opcode. I wouldn't. But >all the indirection addressing modes can go, if we want. > My preference would be to keep immediate, direct and simple indirect, and dump the rest. All the others can be faked using these three. >That'd leave two modes for each field, and from four to eight modifiers. >(I've always thought it'd make sense to treat the redcode'94 modifiers >as a "field mask" of three bits, which would imply adding .IX to make it >eight. Or we could remove .X, .AB and .BA to make it four.) If we keep >the number of opcodes down, we could aim for one-byte internal encoding. > One byte for each of the opcode, A and B, I take it? That would prevent branches from reaching all parts of the core... unless we have a special case: jmp = jmp.b (+/- 127) jmp.ab (+/- 32767) That might be too great a complexity. In fact, having tiny relative branches would be of great educational value; this can still be a problem with modern CPUs, where we have 16 bit signed branch addresses in a 32 or 64 bit address range. > >I'm not sure if that's a good approach, actually. We should definitely >keep the parts of redcode'94 that are good and suitable for the goal of >the new system, but once we sacrifice downward compatibility, we might >as well give up compatibility entirely. Sounds fine to me. Hopefully this discussion will generate more opinions... perhaps someone can then distill all of them into a new standard. Fraser From: "Dennis Luehring" Subject: tp finde more implementations of corewars.... Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:14:39 +0200 Message-ID: <9m334u$3jds$1@ID-68648.news.dfncis.de> i've collected (nearly all) corewars page on my programming game link list... search for "corewar" on this page (more than 60 corewar related webpages(and projects)) http://www.gammax.net/aiforge/game-links.htm From: "B. Vance Schamehorn" Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:21:28 -0600 Message-ID: Benedikt Eger wrote in message news:3B83EDC3.AC4557D5@web.de... > Hey, > I suppose not everybody read my reply to -=+ThE_sLuG+=-'s post, so I am posting > it again. It was meant to support a discussion about how popular Corewar still > is. So please post your comments and please don't flame me for posting the stuff > again. I am just fighting for Corewar to stay alive. > Well, here it is again: > > >Hm, > >what I find very interesting is that most newbies read about Corewar and > >immediately want to know how to start. My primary question would be whether or > >not it is still worth the effort it takes to learn Corewar. Of course a lot of > >people _know_ Corewar. But how many are still playing? I am not sure if I'd want > >to waste my time learning a such complex game if there were only a few players - > >who would want to learn chess if there were only ten players or so in the world > >left playing the game. > > > > With the hope to produce a lot of traffic in rgc, > > Benedikt > > > again, Benedikt > I'm relatively new to Corewar, but my humble opinion is that while chess and corewar both have steep learning curves, and comparatively few professional players, the one advantage chess has is the rank you get after a few tournaments from the US Chess Federation (or other body). This gives you a sense of accomplishment, and gives you something to show for any hard work and practice you put in. While I am not sure how many corewar players there are worldwide, it does seem that the hills are dominated by the top 15 to 25 players or so. Personally, I have yet to get a warrior on the hill, despite investing quite a lot of time in learning, testing, and tinkering. Perhaps we should re-work the hills to implement some sort of ranking system? One snag, of course, is that so many warriors borrow bits and pieces from other people's efforts. But then again, so do most chess games ... Also, I do agree that a better interface is necessary. It seems almost impossible to make pMars run properly on a Windows 95 or better system. --B. Vance Schamehorn From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? Date: 23 Aug 2001 17:57:40 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Fraser > McCrossan > Sent: 23 ao�t, 2001 10:32 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > >These days, that'd mean a point-and-click interface, with a GUI debugger > >and preferably a builtin editor and help system. pMARS may be a good > >simulator, but it's worthless as an IDE. jMARS might be better, but it > >still needs work. I wonder how "the other project" on sourceforge is > >doing these days. > > Well, "the other project" still announces new releases on Freshmeat > fairly regularly, for what that's worth. > > I guess the best approach to this is to divorce the actual simulator > code from the GUI code as much as possible, and write it as cleanly as > possible, with as little dependance on a particular build environment > and OS as is practical. This would then allow developers on each > platform to code around the same simulator. > > Standard C library calls would be abstracted (for example, the > simulator would call mars_malloc, and it would be the responsibility > of the UI programmer to provide appropriate calls for their > environment). This might sound like overkill, but the environment of > particular interest to me is PalmOS, where memory management is done a > little differently, and I'd assume similar was true of Pocket PC. The > simulator should do the parsing and execution of code, but nothing > else; it shouldn't try to read and write files, but should be passed > code via a memory buffer, and provide access to another buffer > containing the core. Perhaps it would also use callbacks to alert the > GUI of certain conditions - those are details. > > > > >It also occurs to me that the simulator ought to be net-aware. It > >should be able to access warrior archives on the internet, and probably > >also to contact hills and submit warriors. That, of course, requires > >coming up with a standard interface, but I think a thin layer over HTTP > >should be more than sufficient, and not hard to implement. > > > > Sounds like a good idea, but again this should probably be divorced > from the simulator itself, and be relegated to the GUI. In the case of > something like PalmOS, it may not make much sense to implement it at all. > > >We could call it RISCW, perhaps? > > I like that :-) Especially since we'll have one instruction per cycle... > > >>Let's see.. If this is supposed to be easy to learn, we probably don't > >want to allow opcode arithmetic. And we probably do want instructions > >to have separate source and target fields, too, since anything else is a > >pain to code. > > This also makes self-modifying code easier, since no bit-wrangling is > necessary in code to specifically change just one field. Although if > this is supposed to be a good code-learning experience, perhaps > encouraging self-modifying code isn't a great idea... :-) > > >Which pretty much means modifiers have to stay, unless we want to go the > >redcode'88 route and make them implicit to the opcode. I wouldn't. But > >all the indirection addressing modes can go, if we want. > > > > My preference would be to keep immediate, direct and simple indirect, > and dump the rest. All the others can be faked using these three. > > >That'd leave two modes for each field, and from four to eight modifiers. > >(I've always thought it'd make sense to treat the redcode'94 modifiers > >as a "field mask" of three bits, which would imply adding .IX to make it > >eight. Or we could remove .X, .AB and .BA to make it four.) If we keep > >the number of opcodes down, we could aim for one-byte internal encoding. > > > > One byte for each of the opcode, A and B, I take it? That would > prevent branches from reaching all parts of the core... unless we have > a special case: > > jmp = jmp.b (+/- 127) > jmp.ab (+/- 32767) [snip] Erhm... I don't know for you, but for me, RC was BNEVER meant to be an introduction to asm or anything remotely like that. It's a programming game. As Stefan Strass(?) put it, what's great with rc is that it's simple... yes, SIMPLE! 1 Instruction/clock, no weird addressing, no register with special case, etc. I think that we can hardly pretend that redcode is currently too hard to learn; I jumped in the game after ICWS '94, in grade ...7, if i believe the age of the first warrior i have on planar's page. My previous experience was some basic(which was also a great leap in my learning english ^_^). So, there are two views about this; one is that learning programming is easier later, when we have developped basic algebra, notion of variable, etc. The difference in RC is that there are NO variable, only an extremely big array. The second one is that learning anything is easier at a younger age; however, i wouldn't dare to try teaching stuff like algebra to a 7-8 yo(though it would be possible, both the student and the teafher would ahve to be REALLY dedicated, i guess 8) Conclusion: RC isn't meant to be a simulation of current asm programming, and ICWS '94 isn't that ahrd to understand. Another point i wouldn't want to lose is the relative addressing. It means that there are NO advantage in the positions, and that copying is much easier. That idea of having near and far jump is completely counter productive if we want to make it easier to approach, btw. I stand on my first idea:We need to breath life back in the game. Paul Khuong _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? Date: 24 Aug 2001 09:29:06 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of B. > Vance Schamehorn > Sent: 23 ao�t, 2001 19:34 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? [snip] > I'm relatively new to Corewar, but my humble opinion is that > while chess and > corewar both have steep learning curves, and comparatively few > professional > players, the one advantage chess has is the rank you get after a few > tournaments from the US Chess Federation (or other body). This > gives you a > sense of accomplishment, and gives you something to show for any hard work > and practice you put in. While I am not sure how many corewar > players there > are worldwide, it does seem that the hills are dominated by the > top 15 to 25 > players or so. Personally, I have yet to get a warrior on the > hill, despite > investing quite a lot of time in learning, testing, and > tinkering. Perhaps > we should re-work the hills to implement some sort of ranking system? One > snag, of course, is that so many warriors borrow bits and pieces > from other > people's efforts. But then again, so do most chess games ... > > Also, I do agree that a better interface is necessary. It seems almost > impossible to make pMars run properly on a Windows 95 or better system. Ranking system: What we COULD do is more like have a system with bigger hills, and simply segment the hills, so that you don't have to test like 100 matchups, but mroe like 50. Have each hill be amde up of 100 warriors, and composed of 5 pools (of 20 warriors). Let's say the hill is like: Pool A Pool B Pool C Pool D Pool E When a warrior enters the hill, it's first tested VS pool C. If it gets the lowest score, it is then tested VS Pool D. When a warrior is tested VS a hill, if it gets the best score, it enters as #1. When another warrior will enter the pool, if it still is #1, it gets promoted to the higher pool. Or something like that ^_^ What's described above is more or less the "normal" way pool work. For pMars. pMars works flawlessly for me 8) Though, i guess an IDE ~ like pShell would help newcomers. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "B. Vance Schamehorn" Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:26:28 -0600 Message-ID: Paul Khuong wrote in message news:NEBBIFPGCLEGEIMCMICOIEIDCIAA.paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com... [snip] > Ranking system: What we COULD do is more like have a system with bigger > hills, and simply segment the hills, so that you don't have to test like 100 > matchups, but mroe like 50. > > Have each hill be amde up of 100 warriors, and composed of 5 pools (of 20 > warriors). > > Let's say the hill is like: > Pool A > Pool B > Pool C > Pool D > Pool E > > When a warrior enters the hill, it's first tested VS pool C. If it gets the > lowest score, it is then tested VS Pool D. > When a warrior is tested VS a hill, if it gets the best score, it enters as > #1. When another warrior will enter the pool, if it still is #1, it gets > promoted to the higher pool. > > Or something like that ^_^ What's described above is more or less the > "normal" way pool work. > > For pMars. pMars works flawlessly for me 8) Though, i guess an IDE ~ like > pShell would help newcomers. > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > Enlarging the hills would still have the problem of the top few players dominating. Also, cascading the hills might cause sort of a layer-cake effect. For example, suppose Pool A ended up with a significant number of stones. Then the next few papers would be more likely to succeed, and those stones (which might fare excellently when compared with the whole set of pools) would fall down. Perhaps we could have different sets of pools and restrict membership. For example, have a Novice hill, Beginner Hill, Intermediate Hill, Advanced Hill, Expert Hill, and Grandmaster Hill. Players begin submitting to the novice hill, but when they reach a certain point (10 warriors making it to the hill, having a warrior stay on for 100 challenges, or whatever), they become ineligible for that hill and they and their warriors proceed to the next. This would allow newer players to compete on a more level field, and help avoid losing players to frustration. If novice chess players were routinely pitted against Grandmasters, there would likely be a lot fewer chess players. Also, you are correct about pMars. It does work for me. What I should have said is that I have trouble running pShell in a window. Sometimes switching warriors during a tournament causes a video weird-out. 8) A new IDE would be fantastic. -- B. Vance Schamehorn From: Benedikt Eger Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 24 Aug 2001 12:13:11 -0400 Message-ID: <3B867B2B.AF234247@web.de> Paul Khuong wrote: > > For pMars. pMars works flawlessly for me 8) Though, i guess an IDE ~ like > pShell would help newcomers. > This may be true for you and certainly is for me, but most people nowadays don't even know what a command line is. So if they are interested in Corewar it is really difficult for them to find out how to start the actual game. So it is not only hard to learn how to program a warrior, but it is also hard to start a battle. So if we manage to provide a nice GUI to code, test and submit warriors more people interested in Corewar would start learning it. Benedikt From: "Zak Arntson" Subject: Fwd: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 24 Aug 2001 19:17:37 -0400 Message-ID: >From: HiEv > >Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI >interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. A programming environment isn't very crucial, maybe just a text-edit box built in to the app. For a playing interface, I would like to see many different viewing options, support for clicking on an adress to bring up it's contents. Say the play field looked like: +-------+---+ | | | | A | B | | | | +-------+---+ | C | +-----------+ Where A was the core display, B was a scrollable zoom-in on memory (clicking on an address in A would scroll to that in B), and C was a control panel with stepping, running, halting, etc. options. If you had a separate section of the app that was a code-editor, it would be great to edit some code, hit the RUN button, and the app would immediately go to the screen above and watch it go. Of course, everything would be hotkeyed, so I wouldn't have to touch the mouse until I started clicking on the core :) And if we wrote some sort of GUI program and publicly opensourced it ... get a mention on Slashdot or something ... it may be done in no time. It seems like it would be a pretty easy app to write. It's just we need to find some coders with time. Zak Arntson mailto:zak@mimir.net http://zaknet.tripod.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Message-ID: <3B86C6A6.7466E7F6@someoneelse.com> From: HiEv Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 21:25:47 GMT Benedikt Eger wrote: > > This may be true for you and certainly is for me, but most people nowadays don't > even know what a command line is. So if they are interested in Corewar it is > really difficult for them to find out how to start the actual game. So it is not > only hard to learn how to program a warrior, but it is also hard to start a > battle. So if we manage to provide a nice GUI to code, test and submit warriors > more people interested in Corewar would start learning it. Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. From: Benedikt Eger Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 25 Aug 2001 08:47:37 -0400 Message-ID: <3B877BBF.AF186E22@web.de> HiEv wrote: > > Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI > interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. Well, first of all it is important that the GUI is available cross-platform. Furthermore - we have to face it - most people are using Windows, so a Windows version is absolutely necessary ( maybe one could use the QT-library ). Then we have to provide functions for editing a warrior, debugging, of course starting a battle and submitting the warrior to some hill. Syntax highlighting would be a nice feature for the editor, and maybe we could include Ilmari Karonen's "Beginner's guide to Redcode" as a tutorial into the program, if he permits, plus a lot of additional help for the beginner. You also have to be able to set all the options from inside the GUI. To sum it up: Everything that is necessary to play corewar has to be included into the GUI. The user should just have to start it, code a warrior and click on a button to let it fight or submit it. Benedikt From: Ilmari Karonen Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 25 Aug 2001 10:55:46 GMT Message-ID: <998733865.29549@itz.pp.sci.fi> In article <3B86C6A6.7466E7F6@someoneelse.com>, HiEv wrote: >Benedikt Eger wrote: >> >> This may be true for you and certainly is for me, but most people nowadays don't >> even know what a command line is. So if they are interested in Corewar it is >> really difficult for them to find out how to start the actual game. So it is not >> only hard to learn how to program a warrior, but it is also hard to start a >> battle. So if we manage to provide a nice GUI to code, test and submit warriors >> more people interested in Corewar would start learning it. > >Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI >interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. Okay, random ideas coming up... I'm basing this more or less on current pMARS design, so that's where the assumptions come from: * 100% GUI-driven -- no need to use the keyboard for running a battle or for simple debugging. Most of what would be cdb commands in pMARS should be buttons. Filling text fields will of course be necessary in some places, but I'm sure you get the idea. * Conversely, everything should have keyboard shortcuts so that it can be used without touching the mouse. * There should be context-sensitive help for the GUI and for redcode / debugger syntax. * There should be a builtin editor with syntax highlighting and hooks to the debugger / core display. IDEA: There should be an option to have the cursor track execution in the original source. This *can* be done, by carrying source file/line data in every opcode. * The debugger should be scriptable. The scripting language should be much less obscure than in cdb. Ideally you should be able to construct simple scripts by recording GUI actions. The builtin editor should be able to highlight and indent debugger syntax too. * You should be able to open more than one core listing window at a time. The central core display should indicate (by background color change?) which parts of the core are listed. * IDEA: There should be an option to flip the core display along the diagonal axis, so that the primary direction becomes vertical. The core display should have wider gaps between lines than between adjacent core locations, to make visualization easier. * When loading warriors, it should be possible to fetch them by FTP or HTTP from the net. There should be an option to cache loaded warriors locally. (That'd probably require a standard listing format -- a simple tab-delimited file with filename/name/author/language fields should be enough.) * It should be possible to submit a warrior to a hill. An HTTP POST request resembling a form submission should do, once we decide the required fields for the request. (ISSUE: How to receive the results? Leave the connection open? Poll after N minutes? Submit an email address and forget about it?) Finally, this should *not* be just for the new RISCW language -- there should be at least enough modularity to allow compiling for different redcode variants, preferably of course multiple language support in the same executable. I can identify at least the following modular elements: - general GUI (menus, settings, etc.) - parser / assembler - simulator engine - visual core display (split into abstract / GUI-dependent parts?) - disassembler (for degugger / core listing) - debug script parser - debugger engine - debugger GUI (merge with general GUI code?) - debug script generator (?) - editor (use existing code, if possible -- editor needs to work with the parser(s) to make it syntax-aware) - help system (use native system if available -- needs very little interaction with the rest) - web fetch/submit code (use libwww or similar for low-level stuff) -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ '"Intuitive" in this situation can generally be translated as "Try the 100 most likely commands. None of them will work, but you'll kick yourself when you find out what you should have typed."' -- Charles Miller in SDM From: Ilmari Karonen Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 25 Aug 2001 11:15:30 GMT Message-ID: <998736986.701@itz.pp.sci.fi> In article , Paul Khuong wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Fraser >> McCrossan >> >> My preference would be to keep immediate, direct and simple indirect, >> and dump the rest. All the others can be faked using these three. Well, indirect means extra complexity, but I suppose we could keep that. That'd mean both A- and B-indirect, then? >> One byte for each of the opcode, A and B, I take it? That would >> prevent branches from reaching all parts of the core... unless we have >> a special case: Actually, I wasn't thinking of that at all. The one-byte remark was just something that occurred to me looking at the bit counts. I'd rather expect the opcodes to be a lot fatter than one byte in most implementations, since they'll have to carry all sorts of metadata for the debugger. Lean-and-mean server engines are a different issue. >I think that we can hardly pretend that redcode is currently too hard to >learn; I jumped in the game after ICWS '94, in grade ...7, if i believe the >age of the first warrior i have on planar's page. My previous experience >was some basic(which was also a great leap in my learning english ^_^). Sounds about the same as for me. The point is that all of us here are exceptions -- and all CW players will continue to be exceptions no matter how much we simplify the game. Most people, even most programmers, just don't write self-modfying assembly code for fun. Nonetheless, I think a simpler standard and a less indtimiating simulator could lower the bar. Besides, there is a completely different issue here -- one of the reasons new players find CW so challenging is that they have to fight uphill against seven years of incremental warrior development. A new standard, sufficiently different from redcode'94, would provide a fresh start. And, based on what I've seen, IMHO the way to start a new standard should indeed be simplification. Not only is redcode'94 complex, but it also happens to form a very logical whole, onto which extra complexity is difficult to add without making the result uglier. What we need is a new standard which is just as consistent as '94, but different, simpler. I'd also wish to make it different enough that it doesn't directly compete with '94 -- it will, of course, compete indirectly, just like anything else that distracts CW players from playing. But I'd still want it to be a new game, not a replacement for '94. Thus RISCW. >Another point i wouldn't want to lose is the relative addressing. It means >that there are NO advantage in the positions, and that copying is much >easier. Oh, definitely. Relative addressing must stay. I'd also say the same of SPL, the scoring mechanism, and a lot of other basic things. We don't want to forget all the good ideas we've learned. >I stand on my first idea:We need to breath life back in the game. I agree -- I think offering more variety in languages is one way to further that goal. And making a newbie-friendly simulator, which is another issue discussed in this thread, definitely is. -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ "Surely you're not suggesting that people who post to usenet are 'smart enough' to use a computer?" -- Mike Sphar in the monastery From: Bartek Dedersen Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 25 Aug 2001 19:45:05 GMT Message-ID: <9m9660.3vvq4vr.1@dedersen-15757.user.cis.dfn.de> Ilmari Karonen wrote: >> [New ideas for corewars] > Okay, random ideas coming up... I'm basing this more or less on > current pMARS design, so that's where the assumptions come from: > > [..] > Finally, this should *not* be just for the new RISCW language -- there > should be at least enough modularity to allow compiling for different > redcode variants, preferably of course multiple language support in the > same executable. But is this not a bit confusing for a new player? I try myself in Core War since the last two weeks and was shocked of the GUI of pmars/pshell so I tried "the other" implementation. There was a new language called "CoreWar" which is _very_ different from the ICWS standart. Now I do not know what I shell do, because I had to present my teacher corewars. The pmars do not work as I thought and the new ICWS draft is too difficult for my classmates and me so I have to use a "propriatary" MARS... > I can identify at least the following modular elements: > > - general GUI (menus, settings, etc.) > > - parser / assembler > - simulator engine > - visual core display (split into abstract / GUI-dependent parts?) Maybe if you "click" on a data-cell, it displays you the optcode and so on? > - disassembler (for degugger / core listing) > > [..] > - editor (use existing code, if possible -- editor needs to work with > the parser(s) to make it syntax-aware) Yeah! And than only once F9 and corewar starts with the warrior! Maybe a implamenttion of vim? > - help system (use native system if available -- needs very little > interaction with the rest) Maybe some sample-warriors in the different languages, which are good commented? > [..] I think, that I am a nub to corewar, but I want to take part in the development and give this cool game, where you learn "by the way" assambler, a new life! :) Greets, Bartek -- War doesn't decide who is right, only who is left. From: Ilmari Karonen Subject: Re: pMARS-Colors and Numbers? Date: 25 Aug 2001 19:54:29 GMT Message-ID: <998768165.17060@itz.pp.sci.fi> In article , -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: >Can anyone explain the colors and numbers used in the graphical display of >pMARS? How do I tell which warrior is which? There are also other symbols >such as little squares and dashes. If anyone could explain this to me, I >would be very greatful. Okay, since no-one else has replied: First of all, there's an annotated picture a http://www.koth.org/pmars/ that should help a bit. As for the details: At the top, the colored lines are process counters. There's one for each warrior. The colors are assigned based on the order in which the warriors are given on the command line. Below them there's a white line that keeps shrinking. That's the cycle counter. When it vanished, the battle is declared a tie. Next from the top is the core display itself. It's made up of little squares that all start out black, one for each instruction in the core. The addresses increase to the right, and wrap to the next line at the edge of the display. Of course, the core is effectively circular, so the end (which is on the last line, but probably won't happen to be exactly at the bottom right corner) joins with the beginning. The first warrior given on the command line starts executing at absolute address 0, at the top left corner of the display. The other warriors all start at random positions. When an instruction is executed by a warrior, the square corresponding to it is filled with that warrior's color. (If the executing process dies, a darker color is used.) A write to an address produces a diagonal slash in the square, a read produces a dot in the corner of the square, and increments and decrements produce vertical and horizontal lines respectively. These marks are drawn on top of each other, so it's quite possible for a square to contain a mixture of colors. Depending on the display level (see below, and/or consult the pMARS manual) only some of the marks may be drawn. Below the core display is the status line. The blocks on the left side of it are the speed indicator -- using the > and < keys you can adjust the speed at which the battle is run. Next to that are the numbers 0 to 4, with the current display level shown in red. Next to that is even more status information -- again, consult the manual for details. Below the status line is the debugger. You *really* need to read the manual to understand that. -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ Join the Core War Imp Ring: http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/cgi-bin/impring From: Ilmari Karonen Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 25 Aug 2001 21:39:41 GMT Message-ID: <998775387.27045@itz.pp.sci.fi> In article <9m9660.3vvq4vr.1@dedersen-15757.user.cis.dfn.de>, Bartek Dedersen wrote: > >But is this not a bit confusing for a new player? I try myself in Core War >since the last two weeks and was shocked of the GUI of pmars/pshell so I >tried "the other" implementation. There was a new language called "CoreWar" >which is _very_ different from the ICWS standart. Now I do not know what I This is why I proposed the name RISCW, to tell it apart from ICWS'94 or any other existing language. That's actually my only annoyance with "the other project". I think they're doing interesting and useful stuff, and they're certainly spending rather more effort on it than I can spare. I just wish they'd chosen a name that wasn't already in use. -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ Join the Core War Imp Ring: http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/cgi-bin/impring From: "-=+ThE_sLuG+=-" Subject: Re: pMARS-Colors and Numbers? Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 04:51:59 GMT k, small problem. All I have in my display is the core view. How do I get all the other stuff? I'm using the Win95/98 version of pMARS compiled by Nandor Sieben. My command line for running it is as follows: pmarsv -s 1000000 -c 5000000 -l 500 -k Please make any and all suggestions. Also, the core display does not look anything like the screenshot at http://www.koth.org/pmars/ Mine is never fullscreen, and each of the little squares are not little. Probably bigger than each letter you're looking at in this sentence. Its good to know that this will not seem weird 'only to me' now. Please reply soon. Thank you for replying in the first place. Sincerely, -=+ThE_sLuG+=- (Shea L.) "Ilmari Karonen" wrote in message news:998768165.17060@itz.pp.sci.fi... > In article , -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: > >Can anyone explain the colors and numbers used in the graphical display of > >pMARS? How do I tell which warrior is which? There are also other symbols > >such as little squares and dashes. If anyone could explain this to me, I > >would be very greatful. > > Okay, since no-one else has replied: > > First of all, there's an annotated picture a http://www.koth.org/pmars/ > that should help a bit. As for the details: > > At the top, the colored lines are process counters. There's one for > each warrior. The colors are assigned based on the order in which the > warriors are given on the command line. > > Below them there's a white line that keeps shrinking. That's the cycle > counter. When it vanished, the battle is declared a tie. > > Next from the top is the core display itself. It's made up of little > squares that all start out black, one for each instruction in the core. > The addresses increase to the right, and wrap to the next line at the > edge of the display. Of course, the core is effectively circular, so > the end (which is on the last line, but probably won't happen to be > exactly at the bottom right corner) joins with the beginning. > > The first warrior given on the command line starts executing at absolute > address 0, at the top left corner of the display. The other warriors > all start at random positions. When an instruction is executed by a > warrior, the square corresponding to it is filled with that warrior's > color. (If the executing process dies, a darker color is used.) A > write to an address produces a diagonal slash in the square, a read > produces a dot in the corner of the square, and increments and > decrements produce vertical and horizontal lines respectively. > > These marks are drawn on top of each other, so it's quite possible for a > square to contain a mixture of colors. Depending on the display level > (see below, and/or consult the pMARS manual) only some of the marks may > be drawn. > > Below the core display is the status line. The blocks on the left side > of it are the speed indicator -- using the > and < keys you can adjust > the speed at which the battle is run. Next to that are the numbers 0 to > 4, with the current display level shown in red. Next to that is even > more status information -- again, consult the manual for details. > > Below the status line is the debugger. You *really* need to read the > manual to understand that. > > -- > Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ > > Join the Core War Imp Ring: http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/cgi-bin/impring > > From: Ilmari Karonen Subject: Re: pMARS-Colors and Numbers? Date: 27 Aug 2001 10:23:38 GMT Message-ID: <998907641.7220@itz.pp.sci.fi> In article , -=+ThE_sLuG+=- wrote: >Please make any and all suggestions. Also, the core display does not look >anything like the screenshot at http://www.koth.org/pmars/ Mine is never >fullscreen, and each of the little squares are not little. Probably bigger >than each letter you're looking at in this sentence. Its good to know that >this will not seem weird 'only to me' now. Ah, you're looking at the text-mode core view. That one *is* weird, I agree. To get a more sensible graphical display, specify the -v option to pmarsv. (Read the docs on what the numbers mean, then experiment to find the display mode that works best for you.) -- Ilmari Karonen - http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ Join the Core War Imp Ring: http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/cgi-bin/impring From: Koth Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - Standard 08/27/01 Date: 27 Aug 2001 16:45:50 -0400 Message-ID: <200108270400.AAA25604@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/27/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Standard KotH CoreWar Hill : Last battle concluded at : Wed Aug 8 22:17:23 EDT 2001 # %W/ %L/ %T Name Author Score Age 1 33/ 20/ 47 Freight Train David Moore 146 77 2 32/ 20/ 48 Test Alexander (Sasha) Wa 143 16 3 31/ 22/ 46 sIMPly.Red v0.95 Leonardo Humberto 141 34 4 30/ 22/ 48 Guardian Ian Oversby 139 76 5 37/ 39/ 24 Stasis David Moore 134 184 6 39/ 45/ 16 Foggy Swamp Beppe Bezzi 134 73 7 35/ 37/ 28 PacMan David Moore 132 106 8 27/ 22/ 51 Shish-Ka-Bob Ben Ford 131 32 9 24/ 17/ 59 EV Paper John K Wilkinson 131 90 10 38/ 46/ 16 Blur '88 Anton Marsden 130 114 11 25/ 20/ 55 Jinglo John Metcalf 129 1 12 24/ 20/ 56 Test I Ian Oversby 129 133 13 31/ 33/ 37 Frog Sticker P.Kline 129 26 14 35/ 42/ 23 Beholder's Eye V1.7 W. Mintardjo 128 352 15 33/ 39/ 28 Tangle Trap David Moore 127 150 16 24/ 22/ 54 Evoltmp 88 John K W 126 127 17 36/ 47/ 17 Iron Gate Wayne Sheppard 126 402 18 14/ 3/ 83 ]enigma[ Michal Janeczek 125 5 19 36/ 48/ 16 ig Wayne Sheppard 125 4 20 31/ 39/ 29 Stillborn Bomber v0.2 mjp 123 17 21 30/ 41/ 28 Carrot Grater '88 Brant D. Thomsen 119 0 From: Koth Subject: KOTH.ORG: Status - MultiWarrior 94 08/27/01 Date: 27 Aug 2001 16:45:54 -0400 Message-ID: <200108270400.AAA25608@gevjon.ttsg.com> Weekly Status on 08/27/01 -=- irc.KOTH.org is up! Meetings held in #corewars -=- Tons of new features on www.KOTH.org/koth.html pages -=- *FAQ* page located at: www.KOTH.org/corewar-faq.html Current Status of the KOTH.ORG Multiwarrior 94 CoreWar Hill: Last battle concluded at : Wed Aug 22 11:44:50 EDT 2001 # Name Author Score Age 1 D-clearM Ken Espiritu 40 83 2 fclear Brian Haskin 35 67 3 test John Metcalf 32 11 4 sptst (3D) Stefan Foerster 31 8 5 Pitbull Christian Schmidt 31 39 6 QuiVa John Metcalf 27 176 7 Xord Monominer XOSC:01 Gino Oblena 24 22 8 Her Majesty P.Kline 23 102 9 8thTest Gino Oblena 21 14 10 Carrot Grater v1.1 Brant D. Thomsen 10 1 11 Wiggy-Wag Sven Koebnick 1 0 From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? Date: 27 Aug 2001 16:52:08 -0400 Message-ID: Commments are inline 8) BTW, your email addie is @sci . fi, right? > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Ilmari > Karonen > Sent: 25 ao�t, 2001 07:31 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > In article <3B86C6A6.7466E7F6@someoneelse.com>, HiEv wrote: > >Benedikt Eger wrote: > >> > >> This may be true for you and certainly is for me, but most > people nowadays don't > >> even know what a command line is. So if they are interested in > Corewar it is > >> really difficult for them to find out how to start the actual > game. So it is not > >> only hard to learn how to program a warrior, but it is also > hard to start a > >> battle. So if we manage to provide a nice GUI to code, test > and submit warriors > >> more people interested in Corewar would start learning it. > > > >Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI > >interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. > > Okay, random ideas coming up... I'm basing this more or less on current > pMARS design, so that's where the assumptions come from: > > * 100% GUI-driven -- no need to use the keyboard for running a battle > or for simple debugging. Most of what would be cdb commands in pMARS > should be buttons. Filling text fields will of course be necessary > in some places, but I'm sure you get the idea. Agh.. yes agreed...you'll have a rel big humber of menus, though 8) > * Conversely, everything should have keyboard shortcuts so that it can > be used without touching the mouse. Much more YES [snip] > * There should be a builtin editor with syntax highlighting and hooks > to the debugger / core display. IDEA: There should be an option to > have the cursor track execution in the original source. This *can* > be done, by carrying source file/line data in every opcode. Yeah.... Can be done with trace in cdb, no? 8) > * The debugger should be scriptable. The scripting language should be > much less obscure than in cdb. Ideally you should be able to > construct simple scripts by recording GUI actions. The builtin > editor should be able to highlight and indent debugger syntax too. How about having the debugger pluginable? Like, communicate with the debugger using calls or something, so everone can use his or her favorite language! > * You should be able to open more than one core listing window at a > time. The central core display should indicate (by background color > change?) which parts of the core are listed. Sure... Just spawn a new process... Having it reflected in the main window isn't as easy, though. > * When loading warriors, it should be possible to fetch them by FTP or > HTTP from the net. There should be an option to cache loaded > warriors locally. (That'd probably require a standard listing format > -- a simple tab-delimited file with filename/name/author/language > fields should be enough.) uh? Why not sue the current system? ;Assert ;Name ;Author Seems pretty good 8) > * It should be possible to submit a warrior to a hill. An HTTP POST > request resembling a form submission should do, once we decide the > required fields for the request. (ISSUE: How to receive the results? > Leave the connection open? Poll after N minutes? Submit an email > address and forget about it?) Well, has koth's upload warrior instead of email thingy worked? If not, well, i don't see why you wouldn't jstu be able to see everything on the webpage. > Finally, this should *not* be just for the new RISCW language -- there > should be at least enough modularity to allow compiling for different > redcode variants, preferably of course multiple language support in the > same executable. First, let's define RISCW. 8) How's the VM gonna be? What architecture? Etc... *MY point:Have a webserver that you can run to have a hill like you want to run it, easily. Different languages would be interesting... But i wanna keep a backward compatible version of ICWS '94, with some extensions. BTW,. ICWS '94 is pretty RISC 8) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? Date: 27 Aug 2001 16:52:03 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Bartek > Dedersen > Sent: 25 ao�t, 2001 16:30 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > Ilmari Karonen wrote: > > >> [New ideas for corewars] > > Okay, random ideas coming up... I'm basing this more or less on > > current pMARS design, so that's where the assumptions come from: > > > > [..] > > Finally, this should *not* be just for the new RISCW language -- there > > should be at least enough modularity to allow compiling for different > > redcode variants, preferably of course multiple language support in the > > same executable. > > But is this not a bit confusing for a new player? I try myself in > Core War > since the last two weeks and was shocked of the GUI of pmars/pshell so I > tried "the other" implementation. There was a new language called > "CoreWar" > which is _very_ different from the ICWS standart. Now I do not > know what I > shell do, because I had to present my teacher corewars. The pmars do not > work as I thought and the new ICWS draft is too difficult for my > classmates > and me so I have to use a "propriatary" MARS... Erhm...ok... LOL, i never thought a command line interface would be so "shocking" ;-) If you really need it ASAP, i suppose you could go and write a quick and easy front-end in VB. You basically need to elt them choose 2 warriors(standard input bar with a browse button beside it), have the output redirected to a temporary file, and if they "REALLY want to get in it" (LOL), you could have menus for everything else. Basically, pSHELL, dumbed down, in windows. Also, why can't you use pShell, actually? It lets you easily choose warriors, modify them, remake them battle, etc... Run tourneys too! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 27 Aug 2001 16:58:14 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Zak > Arntson > Sent: 24 ao�t, 2001 19:18 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Fwd: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > >From: HiEv > > > >Just curious, what kinds of things would you like to see in the GUI > >interface? Both the programming interface and the playing interface. > > A programming environment isn't very crucial, maybe just a text-edit box > built in to the app. > > For a playing interface, I would like to see many different > viewing options, > support for clicking on an adress to bring up it's contents. > > Say the play field looked like: > > +-------+---+ > | | | > | A | B | > | | | > +-------+---+ > | C | > +-----------+ > > Where A was the core display, B was a scrollable zoom-in on > memory (clicking > on an address in A would scroll to that in B), and C was a control panel > with stepping, running, halting, etc. options. > > If you had a separate section of the app that was a code-editor, > it would be > great to edit some code, hit the RUN button, and the app would > immediately > go to the screen above and watch it go. > > Of course, everything would be hotkeyed, so I wouldn't have to touch the > mouse until I started clicking on the core :) > > And if we wrote some sort of GUI program and publicly opensourced > it ... get > a mention on Slashdot or something ... it may be done in no time. > It seems > like it would be a pretty easy app to write. It's just we need > to find some > coders with time. I like the concept... However, might i suggest you take a look at pmarsv?(either text mode or graphical if you ahve the 286 version). It has the most important pieces, imho, these pieces being: 1. Core (DUH! LOL) 2. Memory Listing 3. Command Line(YES! I want to keep these commands; they,re really a good thing, and i ahven'T amstered them to their fullest... at all) I'd Suggest: -------------- | | | A | | | -------------- | | | | B | C | | | | -------------- A= Core B= Memory Dump C= Command line/Output Oh, and lket's make the locations clickalbes; fe: If we had the cell "JMZ.f $-5, @-6", if we dbl-clicked on the a-field, we'd get to [loc-5], and the same for b-field. Maybe even make it so we can right-click, ahve a contextual menu -> go to indirect.(that would make the cursor go to where the location points to) However, i suck at GUIs, and i know zilch about GUI programming in Win32, so i'm not it 8) (If you need images for bg or slpash screen, i could try to make something) Anyway, It IS good for the community to try and see what is going on here. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "Ryan Beesley" Subject: Re: CoreLife Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 20:27:00 -0500 Message-ID: To me, it was an interesting programming model. It was linear, but then again it wasn't... I was just trying to track down more information about it since the only source I had was KOTH. /Ryan "Paul Khuong" wrote in message news:NEBBIFPGCLEGEIMCMICOGEBLCIAA.paul_virak_khuong@yahoo.com... > > -----Original Message----- > > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Ryan > > Beesley > > Sent: 11 ao�t, 2001 00:31 > > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > > Subject: CoreLife > > > > > > Where did this program come from, and is anyone doing any further > > development on it? KOTH.org is the only place I can find that references > > it. It was suggested that I try asking on the newsgroup. > It's dead and old... Never quite understood the interest, but anyway 8) > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.268 / Virus Database: 140 - Release Date: 01-08-07 > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From: "Robert Macrae" Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 28 Aug 2001 08:32:44 -0400 Message-ID: <006301c12f95$e3abbc40$2100a8c0@HomePC> > Corewar has evolved in stages from a relatively simple instruction set > to a very complex one, one that is more complex than many real > CPUs. Also, it has many abstract features that real CPUs lack. In > part, this makes coding for it easier, but it also makes the language > more complex, raising the bar for those learning it. Could it be that > the learning curve required is now so steep that new players > appreciate the concept, but so much effort is required to reach a > competent level that they don't bother? I don't think it is language complexity that is the issue, but the highly optimised state of the hills. I know the instructions reasonably well, but that is far from enough. To write something new you have to analyse a complex situation, come up with a creative response, and code it, and loop. Coding quickly become the easy bit. For a while the underlying situation has been masked by the introduction of P-Space, because the strategy of tweaking existing components and plugging them into new P-Logic is still reasonably certain to make it onto the hill. This provides newcomers with an incentive to keep trying. However, there is a huge amount of stumbling around and playing around with flawed ideas to do before you are likely to create something that both looks new and works. The hills posses static parameters and have been the subject of intensive optimisation. Competitions go to another extreme, providing one-off challenges at which everyone starts with a clean sheet and has to guess what will happen. This is actually a lot more involving (and fairer) for beginners. The key problem with attracting new players is not the complexity of the instruction set but the difficulty of creating a satisfying result. As such it is chiefly determined by the competitive environment. Hills in their current form are no longer sufficient to push the game forward. The beginners hill is an excellent example of the right kind of development but more are needed... but what? I wonder if there is a middle way between competitions and hills, providing an automated but dynamic environment? Something like a hill in which the parameters drift over time? Delete random instructions from the full set each month? Actually, I don't have much of an idea what the solution looks like. However, I am rather confident that we should be looking at the competitive environment rather than at the instruction set. A new, simpler instruction set would simply defer the problem for a few months until the new set had been exploited in the efficient way we see in '94. Robert Macrae From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? Date: 28 Aug 2001 14:03:41 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Robert > Macrae > Sent: 28 ao�t, 2001 08:32 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > > Corewar has evolved in stages from a relatively simple instruction set > > to a very complex one, one that is more complex than many real > > CPUs. Also, it has many abstract features that real CPUs lack. In > > part, this makes coding for it easier, but it also makes the language > > more complex, raising the bar for those learning it. Could it be that > > the learning curve required is now so steep that new players > > appreciate the concept, but so much effort is required to reach a > > competent level that they don't bother? > > I don't think it is language complexity that is the issue, but the highly > optimised state of the hills. I know the instructions reasonably well, but > that is far from enough. To write something new you have to analyse a > complex situation, come up with a creative response, and code it, and > loop. Coding quickly become the easy bit. [snip pretyt good analysis of the problem} I think you have hit the target with that. Everyone can understand the ~14 or so instruction, i think. Some conecpts are new and confusing at start, but nothing out of reach of Mr and Ms everyone 8) > The key problem with attracting new players is not the complexity of the > instruction set but the difficulty of creating a satisfying result. As > such it is chiefly determined by the competitive environment. Hills in > their current form are no longer sufficient to push the game forward. The > beginners hill is an excellent example of the right kind of development > but more are needed... but what? I wonder if there is a middle way between > competitions and hills, providing an automated but dynamic environment? > Something like a hill in which the parameters drift over time? Delete > random instructions from the full set each month? IMHO, that idea could work very well. Have rotations with different sets, where we know which instruction are going maybe a month in advance, but not which one are coming in... Keept he suspense, so that the hill at the start of the rotation is very dynamic 8) (this is what keeps many TCG from becoming stale, so why not try the same with cw? 8) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "B. Vance Schamehorn" Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:29:29 -0600 Message-ID: Robert Macrae wrote in message news:006301c12f95$e3abbc40$2100a8c0@HomePC... > > Corewar has evolved in stages from a relatively simple instruction set > > to a very complex one, one that is more complex than many real > > CPUs. Also, it has many abstract features that real CPUs lack. In > > part, this makes coding for it easier, but it also makes the language > > more complex, raising the bar for those learning it. Could it be that > > the learning curve required is now so steep that new players > > appreciate the concept, but so much effort is required to reach a > > competent level that they don't bother? > > I don't think it is language complexity that is the issue, but the highly > optimised state of the hills. I know the instructions reasonably well, but > that is far from enough. To write something new you have to analyse a > complex situation, come up with a creative response, and code it, and > loop. Coding quickly become the easy bit. > > For a while the underlying situation has been masked by the introduction > of P-Space, because the strategy of tweaking existing components and > plugging them into new P-Logic is still reasonably certain to make it onto > the hill. This provides newcomers with an incentive to keep trying. > However, there is a huge amount of stumbling around and playing around > with flawed ideas to do before you are likely to create something that > both looks new and works. > > The hills posses static parameters and have been the subject of intensive > optimisation. Competitions go to another extreme, providing one-off > challenges at which everyone starts with a clean sheet and has to guess > what will happen. This is actually a lot more involving (and fairer) for > beginners. > > The key problem with attracting new players is not the complexity of the > instruction set but the difficulty of creating a satisfying result. As > such it is chiefly determined by the competitive environment. Hills in > their current form are no longer sufficient to push the game forward. The > beginners hill is an excellent example of the right kind of development > but more are needed... but what? I wonder if there is a middle way between > competitions and hills, providing an automated but dynamic environment? > Something like a hill in which the parameters drift over time? Delete > random instructions from the full set each month? > > Actually, I don't have much of an idea what the solution looks like. > However, I am rather confident that we should be looking at the > competitive environment rather than at the instruction set. A new, simpler > instruction set would simply defer the problem for a few months until the > new set had been exploited in the efficient way we see in '94. > > Robert Macrae > I agree completely. I found redcode ('94 standard) fairly easy to learn (although I had previous experience with assembly). The problem, as you said, is trying to get on the hills. A dynamic hill, with shifting parameters, would keep the players on their toes, but it does not address the gap between new players and experienced ones. If hills based on level of experience (which I suggested in a previous post) won't work, then perhaps we should look at some way to de-emphasize the warriors, and find some way to track the performance of the players, instead. -- B. Vance Schamehorn From: Hillis Subject: Re: CoreLife Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:30:18 -0400 Message-ID: <3B8C379A.B014FD0E@erols.com> Ryan Beesley wrote: > > To me, it was an interesting programming model. It was linear, but then > again it wasn't... I was just trying to track down more information about it > since the only source I had was KOTH. > > /Ryan > This is the right place to ask - just looks like none of us knows the answer. If you follow the "Imp Ring" from the Koth site, you'll find some A-Life/Core wars projects that are still active. Dave Hillis From: Hillis Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:05:53 -0400 Message-ID: <3B8C4E01.DF3D5A57@erols.com> Robert Macrae wrote: > I don't think it is language complexity that is the issue, but the highly > optimised state of the hills. I know the instructions reasonably well, but > that is far from enough. To write something new you have to analyse a > complex situation, come up with a creative response, and code it, and > loop. Coding quickly become the easy bit. I agree with pretty much all of what you say. There are two problems: keeping the pros engaged and getting the beginners hooked. They probably need different solutions. I imagine that most beginners start Core wars with the same expectation: they're going to dream up an original strategy, code up a warrior from scratch and send it off to do battle against other warriors written by people on the same footing. And it's going to be so incredibly cool! Instead, their only option is to play against warriors written using seven years worth of legacy code. If they want to even play on the "beginner's" hill, (which they can't anyway because PIZZA is frozen as usual) they'll have to re-use alot of other people's code. And, oh by the way, anything they do to actually change that code is almost certain to weaken it. Maybe if their first experience playing Core Wars was more in line with what they were expecting, beginners would be more likely to stick with it. What if there was a real beginner's hill where players were required (honor system) _not_ to re-use code from published warriors? Dave Hillis From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? Date: 29 Aug 2001 08:12:58 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of Hillis > Sent: 28 ao�t, 2001 23:30 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? [snip] > I imagine that most beginners start Core wars with the same > expectation: they're going to dream up an original strategy, code up a > warrior from scratch and send it off to do battle against other warriors > written by people on the same footing. And it's going to be so > incredibly cool! > > Instead, their only option is to play against warriors written using > seven years worth of legacy code. If they want to even play on the > "beginner's" hill, (which they can't anyway because PIZZA is frozen as > usual) they'll have to re-use alot of other people's code. And, oh by > the way, anything they do to actually change that code is almost certain > to weaken it. > > Maybe if their first experience playing Core Wars was more > in line with > what they were expecting, beginners would be more likely to stick with > it. What if there was a real beginner's hill where players were required > (honor system) _not_ to re-use code from published warriors? Point 1(newbies):It'Ms still possible. While developping an entirely enw archetype is enar impossible, taking a snippet a step further is very possible. FE, check http://www.koth.org/planar/rc/stargatevariant.txt. (yeah mine)..One of my very firsts, and for some reason, i have seen the same code pop up in a tourney viable warrior just last tourney ^_^. And, yes, modifying without understanding almost always elads to disaster 8) Honor system thingy: Simply always show the source. Have someone ACTIVE here check it out, so he knwos which warrior to boot off the hill. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: "Dennis Luehring" Subject: there are graphical versions of corewar! Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:51:15 +0200 Message-ID: <9miogb$2a497$1@ID-68648.news.dfncis.de> Core War for Windows 1.11 (http://tecfa.unige.ch/pub/software/win95/vieartificielle/wincor2/) Core Wars by Harald Markus (with debugger?) (http://harald.ist.org/download/corewars.html) Core War Tribes (http://www.dd.chalmers.se/~f95lith/CoreWar/CoreWar.html) ciao dennis (from germany) -------------------------------- http://www.gammax.net/aiforge/ From: "Paul Khuong" Subject: RE: How popular is Corewar? Date: 29 Aug 2001 21:46:27 -0400 Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: corewar-l@koth.org [mailto:corewar-l@koth.org]On Behalf Of > sieben@imap1.asu.edu > Sent: 29 ao�t, 2001 19:34 > To: Multiple recipients of list COREWAR-L > Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? > > > : getting the beginners hooked. > > To hook the beginners we could set up a core war belt system like the one > in judo. It would contain a bunch of hills. A beginner would have to get > on the first hill in order to be able to submit something to the next > hill. The hills would be static. A submission would not compete against > each other only against a few predetermined warriors. The hills would > contain specialized wariors. They could be white or grey. Some of the > hills would have limitations like certain instructions cannot be used, or > the submission has to be of a certain form. For example the first hill > could contain only an imp and the submission has to kill that imp, later > on a hill could contain a few stones but the submission may not contain > the cmp instruction. Choosing the restrictions on these hills would make > it hard to submit existing warriors. The succesful submission could be > stored, and they would go into the succesful person's diploma. Yeah.... And build some sort of mystique where we REALLY don't just hand out the answers, but make the newbies discover a solution themselves. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From: M Joonas Pihlaja Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 29 Aug 2001 21:52:32 -0400 Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Hillis wrote: > Instead, their only option is to play against warriors > written using seven years worth of legacy code. If they want > to even play on the "beginner's" hill, (which they can't > anyway because PIZZA is frozen as usual) they'll have to > re-use alot of other people's code. I absolutely whole-heartedly agree. Perhaps we could persuade JKW to set one up at KOTH. Indeed, as Pizza is locked up most of the time, perhaps the Pizza hills should migrate to KOTH permanently? Of course, I'd rather they didn't on account of tradition and stuff, but working hills are better than none, yes? > Maybe if their first experience playing Core Wars was > more in line with what they were expecting, beginners would > be more likely to stick with it. What if there was a real > beginner's hill where players were required (honor system) > _not_ to re-use code from published warriors? I'm not sure I agree completely with non-reuse of code. IMO the best way to learn is to modify someone else's (successful) code and try to understand why it breaks when you touch it. Oh, and just for the record, The Great Wipeout of the -94 hill a few years ago *did* help, in that a few new players started to play, actually got on and stayed there. Dynamic is better than stale[1]. Joonas Pihlaja [1] See this hammer I've got here? Fancy a headache? OK then... So don't even think about it. From: sieben@imap1.asu.edu Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 29 Aug 2001 23:00:28 GMT Message-ID: <9mjs6c$2ds$1@news.asu.edu> : getting the beginners hooked. To hook the beginners we could set up a core war belt system like the one in judo. It would contain a bunch of hills. A beginner would have to get on the first hill in order to be able to submit something to the next hill. The hills would be static. A submission would not compete against each other only against a few predetermined warriors. The hills would contain specialized wariors. They could be white or grey. Some of the hills would have limitations like certain instructions cannot be used, or the submission has to be of a certain form. For example the first hill could contain only an imp and the submission has to kill that imp, later on a hill could contain a few stones but the submission may not contain the cmp instruction. Choosing the restrictions on these hills would make it hard to submit existing warriors. The succesful submission could be stored, and they would go into the succesful person's diploma. Nandor From: David Matthew Moore Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:10:56 GMT sieben@imap1.asu.edu wrote: > To hook the beginners we could set up a core war belt system like the one > in judo. It would contain a bunch of hills. A beginner would have to get > on the first hill in order to be able to submit something to the next > hill. I like the idea of a progression of hills, but with a few revisions. I don't like specialized hills that require a certain kind of submission. I don't want to dictate what code the beginner should write. He needs to write whatever he gets geeked on. You want the pupil to write something that he thought of. Instead, the progression of hills should match the progression of strategies throughout history. The first hill would have stuff like dwarf, mice, etc. Balance the hill so that the winning entry could be anything. The suggested reading for the first hill would be Dewdney's articles and an '88 tutorial. The hill warriors would be visible, so they could provide additional inspiration for starting points. Then good performance on that hill is rewarded by the next challenge. The next challenge may be fighting against some of the better ICWS tournament submissions. Be sure to include author names. Give the player the feeling of competing in _the_ annual tournament with combatants from all over the world. Eventually, they'd be fighting modern '94 warriors. Populate the hill with interesting strategies, not necessarily highly optimized warriors. Throw in ample links to relevant articles that give hints about the programs and their history. -- David Moore mooredav@msu.edu From: Omay Subject: bcktoyadlt784@yahoo.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:51:16 GMT bcktoyadlt784@yahoo.com From: foehg@localhost.localdomain (Ransom Smith) Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:17:13 GMT M Joonas Pihlaja wrote: > > I'm not sure I agree completely with non-reuse of code. IMO the > best way to learn is to modify someone else's (successful) code > and try to understand why it breaks when you touch it. > Shoot, I rip Qscans wholesale, but I try to make the rest of it as original as I possibly can. > Oh, and just for the record, The Great Wipeout of the -94 hill a > few years ago *did* help, in that a few new players started to > play, actually got on and stayed there. Dynamic is better than > stale[1]. > > What was that? > Joonas Pihlaja > > [1] See this hammer I've got here? Fancy a headache? > OK then... So don't even think about it. > Hammer looks kind of musty. Haven't used it in a while? Gee, a headache would be so... dynamic just now... :-) -- [http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=5913] [foehg@burtonian.com] [http://www.koth.org/] [http://www.nethack.org/] [http://www.slashdot.org/] No, I don't Yahoo. --**([{ LIFE IS FAIR. --**-- LIVE WITH IT. }])**-- From: "Ryan Beesley" Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:45:39 -0500 Message-ID: A PalmOS based version sounds really intriguing. I can see people all over, beaming their new warriors around... Kinda like trading Pokemon, if you can forgive the reference. /Ryan "Fraser McCrossan" wrote in message news:slrn9oa26b.tlg.fmccross@localhost.localdomain... > ... This might sound like overkill, but the environment of > particular interest to me is PalmOS, where memory management is done a > little differently, and I'd assume similar was true of Pocket PC. The > simulator should do the parsing and execution of code, but nothing > else; it shouldn't try to read and write files, but should be passed > code via a memory buffer, and provide access to another buffer > containing the core. Perhaps it would also use callbacks to alert the > GUI of certain conditions - those are details.... From: David Matthew Moore Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:12:49 GMT Ransom Smith wrote: > M Joonas Pihlaja wrote: >> Oh, and just for the record, The Great Wipeout of the -94 hill a >> few years ago *did* help, in that a few new players started to >> play, actually got on and stayed there. Dynamic is better than >> stale[1]. > > What was that? About 2-3 years ago, I submitted a batch of at least 25 warriors to the -94 hill. Using Pspace, they rewarded each other with a score of 50/50/0, but they tied everything else. Consequently, the entire hill was replaced in about 25 battles in one afternoon. Every entry had an animal name :-) There was no attempt to break the deadlock. Instead, some people with eliminated warriors asked the hill admin to kill the new submissions, which he did. Those people had beem playing to achieve the highest age on the hill so that they could enter the Hall of Fame as presented in Core Warrior. For them, the authenticity of the tournament was ruined. What good are the age statistics now? However, at that time, the vehicle for attaining such age was routine optimization, not invention. Complaining about the ejection of yet another stone/imp combination is like mourning the cancellation of a television sitcom. Will anyone else really care? I didn't want players to be satisfied with boring warriors. I hypothesized that the removal of the age incentive would lead to a changing of priorities. I was hoping a change for the better, but I knew that it couldn't get worse. In retrospect, everything remained about the same. Anyway, after my programs were killed, anybody that submitted anything could get on the hill for the next few challenges. So people did. The rules prevented any warrior from aging until all of the spots were filled. Once the hill was populated again, the next submission caused everything's age to go from 0 to 1. Later, somebody created a new Hall of Fame (the third one?) to rank warriors that have competed since then. -- David Moore mooredav@msu.edu From: ff95@dial.pipex.com Subject: Re: How popular is Corewar? Date: 31 Aug 2001 13:08:42 -0400 Message-ID: <999274892.3b8fb98c26bb1@netmail.pipex.net> Quoting David Matthew Moore : > I was hoping a change > for the better, but I knew that it couldn't get worse. > In retrospect, everything remained about the same. Thought-process and outcome have a familiar, even universal ring. I think I have just chosen an epitaph 8-) Robert Macrae